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#Post#: 41767--------------------------------------------------
Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Jed McKenna Date: June 26, 2020, 10:33 am
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Dear Reader:
I ask that you contemplate the following... not that that it
will lead to some giant realization (but it might), perhaps just
an open space that is new to you. You will find what you will
find.
So, a simple question (usually the best kind).... do you have a
body? We language it as ''I have a body'' not, ''I am a body''.
That in itself is interesting, but let's go deeper. How do you
know you have a body? Stupid question ??? ??? ??? ???, maybe,
but give it a little thought. Beyond, ''Hey doodoo, it's
obvious!'', I would like to point something out.
The only reason you know your have a body, more accurately,
'think' you have a body, is because your body tells you so.
Imagine a bank robber in court giving testimony. When asked,
''Did you rob the bank?'' he replies ''No''. I'm not quite sure
what word describes this, but I am going to call it SRV or
'self-referential validation'. Is the judge and jury, assuming
for present purposes that's all the evidence submitted, going to
dismiss the case or find him innocent because of his SRV? It
seems to me that such evidence would not go very far in proving
anything at all.
Back to what appears to be 'your' body. You might respond with,
''I can feel my body'' or ''I can look at my body'', or ''I can
hear my body and even lick my arm and taste the sweat.'' Does
that prove anything, really? Is it not just a sensory
experience, and one that is generated by a ''body'' or what
appears to be a body? This is the same as the bank robber
claiming his own innocent... SRV.
If you ask someone, ''Do I have a body'' they are going to say
something like, ''Of course, I am looking at it right now''. And
you know they are saying it because YOUR body tells you so, it
hears hears them speak. Perhaps you look in a mirror and see a
reflection of a body, and naturally conclude, ''This is my
body''. Once again, how do you know? :P :P :P. Isn't it your
bodies eyes and a brain process that informs you there is a
body.
Please contemplate this; the only reason that you think you have
a body is because a body tells you so, via various bodily
senses. Perhaps re-read up to this point and contemplate if my
meanderings are real for you. All that matters is you and your
experiences... and in my experience all those come through a
body. You perceive your hates, loves, fears, blessing,
absolutely everything through your (or 'a') body. Let that sink
in before we tackle the next point.
Out on a limb and pushing the limits... I ask you to imagine
where everything you appear to currently experience goes when
there is no body. Sounds pretty challenging. Is it impossible?
Well, perhaps, but isn't that what imagination if for, to
create, embrace, to somehow vicariously experience the
(apparently) impossible. In 'infinity' nothing is impossible...
absolutely nothing. Play with it and you will find you can make
headway.
Contemplate, imagine, experience and let me know what comes up
for you.
Much love and stay healthy.
Love ya, Jed.
#Post#: 41769--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Guy Ponders Date: June 26, 2020, 11:34 am
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Wow, thank you. I needed that.
#Post#: 41770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Jed McKenna Date: June 26, 2020, 12:32 pm
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Hi Guy:
Welcome to the forum. Yes, it's not something that a 'Guy'
usually 'ponders'. Glad to be of service.
Love ya and stay healthy.
Jed.
#Post#: 41774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Neverx2x2 Date: June 26, 2020, 5:32 pm
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What comes up is something I've called 'Reverse Solipsism'.
I've experienced it as a kind of acute feeling that I was a
point upon which pressure was expressed... as if 'accused' into
being. I've had it since I attended a family reunion for my
grandmother's funeral. I started to realize that all of my
relations around me were running very similar thought patterns
as 'my own'... as if there were a genetic or bio-linguistic
entity at work on all of us. What I realized was that my
relationship with my body far extends from what I knew it to
be... all that familial language showed it to me... and that my
body was 'accusing' a 'point', or 'an imaginary me' into
existence. Moreover, it was not just my body that does this
'accusing'... but rather, all of Infinity.
This then became my response to Alan Watt's talk about putting a
bunch of solipsists in a room... and letting them argue about
who is the 'real' person. It still is my response today... "Try
the same trick with 'reverse solipsists', and see if they argue
about who is not real."
Moreover, reverse solipsism dove-tails right into the perception
of 'Having a body'... it allows it. If I am accused or scripted
by infinity, and a layer of that scripting is 'my body', then
that perception of 'having a body' is part of the accusation.
Or, use the common argument having to do with masks today. You
can know that you aren't real, and still run the script that
declares, "It's my body, you won't be putting a mask on it."
...because reverse solipsism makes sense of it by putting
Infiinity's accusation as the ultimate cause for your
resistance. In other words the Reverse Solipsist in Alan Watt's
arguing room, would act like anybody else. They might even argue
or fight about mask-wearing and social distancing... knowing
that it/they is/are not real the whole time.
#Post#: 41775--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Jed McKenna Date: June 27, 2020, 12:56 am
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Interesting way of viewing it Never... AKA, Mr. Who by Who.
Love ya and stay healthy.
Jed.
#Post#: 41777--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Iam that Iam Date: June 27, 2020, 2:42 pm
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Hi Jed, interesting subject. I asked the question once who am I
and the mind very Lauder replied the body.No matter how hard I
Try to feel or think different the mind always win leaving me
with more an more frustration and depression. The body can't
move, think or do something without will.BUT and is a big but
who's will?? Is like something hacked the self . Is there other
way to self realization? I don't think so. I ???t is what it
is and we have to play by the rules till the time come and
whatever is playing here decided to show self realization either
by will or death. That's my thoughts.
Be well.
#Post#: 41780--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Jed McKenna Date: June 28, 2020, 2:36 am
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Thanks for sharing. Let me ask you a question... does will have
to belong to someone? Why would it have to belong, perhaps it
just is.
All that matters is you and what is going on with you... but you
have to look and the strange thing is you don't usually find you
until you realize there is no you.
Love ya and stay healthy.
Jed.
#Post#: 41788--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Death_by_SallyD Date: June 28, 2020, 8:21 am
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A couple days of lazy, slip-shod, intermittent, fraudulent and
inconstant research on the existence of.....my left arm.
Conclusions: My left arm appears to exist.....HOWEVER....the
certainty that it exists seems to be galvanized in the context
of taking it for granted. i.e. only the slimmest of slivers of
awareness of vague sensations associated with tactile
information....and the occasional vague perception of it
flickering in and out of view in my peripheral visual
perception....somehow lends to the assumption/certainty that it
exists. That certainty, ironically and paradoxically, falters
and erodes/dissolves the more sustained focus of awareness is
levied upon the previously seemingly incontrovertible "evidence"
of its existence....namely those perceptual signatures. Focused
awareness sees my tactile perception of my left arm turn into a
puff of vaguely contained, slowly-morphing-to-amorphousness
cloud of vibration. Focused awareness on visual perception of
my left arm has it sense of visual solidity slowly thin,
change/shift, become progressively translucent...i.e. begin to
dissolve before my very eyes. After a modicum of focused
awareness...."my left arm" is no longer a left arm anymore. I
don't know what it is, honestly.
Thus.....extrapolating the trajectory forward (or sideward,
downward, upward, backward......inward) the truth of my left
arm's nonexistence (at least in terms of something which can be
categorized) lies in the inevitability of persistence of
awareness of the transitory sensations associated with its
presumed existence.
Persistent self inquiry "What am I?" helps mercilessly and
persistently redirect that dissolving awareness on the presumed
substance of certainty of bodily existence......is my guess.
For those who have the huevos....and character of inner
ruthlessness. Go get 'em!
#Post#: 41789--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Krill Date: June 28, 2020, 3:57 pm
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Hi Jed,
Thank you for this.
Awareness is informed, or aware, of a body.
Where does everything I currently experience go when there is no
body? It's not that it wouldn't go anywhere, it's that it would
not arise in the way it does through the body.
There seems to be different types of experience; dream, astral
travel, jhana yoga, drug induced. All of these have arisen but
I can not prove they have needed the body to do so. I can only
say the body seems to be there before and after sleep or prior
to and after deep meditation. Perception then reverts back to
the more familiar presentation.
I've often thought/sensed there is another 'sense organ' because
of this. It feels 'correct' and even pretty obvious now that the
body's sensory system, interpreted by the mind, creates, or
forms, experience. It seems equally correct that this particular
way of experience will no longer be accessible after the body is
gone.
AND, it feels equally correct, though not quite as obvious yet,
that some type of perception/awareness remains. This would be
the other sense organ I was referring to above.
So, in a nutshell, awareness is informed of both the body and
it's particular way of perception/experience but is not
exclusively tied to this type of experience. Meaning it is also
aware of other types of experience that I can not prove need or
are dependent on a body.
I will keep chewing on this however. Thanks for the challenge!
#Post#: 41790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Do you have a body? Seriously... let's explore that....
By: Jed McKenna Date: June 28, 2020, 8:17 pm
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Thank you both for you clear expressions... keep digging... and
stay healthy.
Love ya, Jed
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