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#Post#: 8389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: squarecutter Date: August 28, 2018, 12:21 pm
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'Well you go your way and I'll go mine
Now and forever 'till the end of time
I'll find somebody new and baby
We'll say we're through and you won't matter anymore…
At a risk of treading where Angels fear to. seems the above
lyrics frome Buddy Holly are most pertinent. What should matter
is that stories are readable and on topic
#Post#: 8390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: Kat Date: August 28, 2018, 12:43 pm
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[quote author=squarecutter link=topic=786.msg8389#msg8389
date=1535476881]
'Well you go your way and I'll go mine
Now and forever 'till the end of time
I'll find somebody new and baby
We'll say we're through and you won't matter anymore…
At a risk of treading where Angels fear to. seems the above
lyrics frome Buddy Holly are most pertinent. What should matter
is that stories are readable and on topic
[/quote]
Fair enough, but it was Flag who insisted on the correctness of
his position and went so far as to conflate a moot grammatical
issue with the much weightier issue of truth in media and
politics. I might consider him obsessed to the point of
fanaticism, but I could have respected his integrity if he
hadn't made it abundantly clear that he is not concerned with
establishing the "truth" on this silly LEGO issue. He is in love
with his own opinion and thinks he can impose that opinion on
other people by fiat and call it truth.
I want to be very clear about this, as it's easy for observers
to look at the situation and think, "Just let it go." Few people
care whether someone writes "Legos" or not. I don't care. I am,
however, prepared to continue the debate until my interlocutor
forces me to concede for valid reasons or concedes to me. I'm
even prepared to agree to disagree. I'm not prepared to lose an
argument by default.
I also care that Flag made this about more than LEGO. He chose
this hill to die on. Then when the advancing troops refused to
retreat, he fled from the hill but still claimed a victory.
Kat
#Post#: 8391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: Jack Date: August 28, 2018, 1:15 pm
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[quote author=Kat link=topic=786.msg8390#msg8390
date=1535478206]
I also care that Flag made this about more than LEGO. He chose
this hill to die on. Then when the advancing troops refused to
retreat, he fled from the hill but still claimed a victory.
[/quote]
Over and again, I've said that I try hard to teach my kids to
have a proper conversation. This is many of the points I stress
as being capable of destroying a relationship.
Iconoclast used to drive me crazy, because he'd post some
article that proved one of his pet points. I'd read it, point
out the flaws in it, and he'd never try to defend it.
If you want to have an intellectually honest conversation, you
HAVE to start with the idea that the other person might have a
view that's equally valid, or even superior, to yours. If you
come into a discussion willing to do whatever it takes to win
the argument, including sticking your fingers in your ears and
going 'la la la', then you're not having a discussion. In
Flagellant's case, he has the key, so he can hold things hostage
and force anyone who wants to stay to conform to his views.
That doesn't make him right, however.
#Post#: 8394--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: Zyngaru Date: August 28, 2018, 1:27 pm
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[quote author=Kat link=topic=786.msg8388#msg8388
date=1535468475]
[quote="Flagellant"]You may not want analogy, Kat, but Bottom's
example IS the one that nails it. MECCANO. A method of play with
lots of pieces that connect together.
If the floor is covered with Meccano pieces, there is NO way
anyone would say "pick up those Meccanos". Unless they were
extremely ignorant. And then they are perpetuating and
legitimising an ignorant usage to their children which creates
your ad populum usage. It may be widespread, but it's still
technically wrong. Just because some random dictionary gives in
and lists a popular usage doesn't make it correct. It just means
they have caved in to the aggressive, proud-of-my-ignorance
populism that's now rampant and has been demonstrated in this
thread.
"Meccanos" isn't a valid word. Meccano is a name for the SYSTEM
of play, just like "Lego", and the SYSTEM cannot be plural. The
PIECES of that system can be, but they are described as bricks,
pieces, parts (so plural)... As Bottom points out, "Go" is a
game with many small parts. You do not say "pick up all your
Gos". You'd be thought an idiot if you said that. :shock: Or if
you said "pick up all your chesses", or "pick up all your
Monopolies". So your argument that it's valid to make a plural
out of a noun like Lego, clearly describing a composite entity,
to describe its subcomponents is just nonsense, since there is
extensive prior practice of NOT doing so with games and systems
of play, especially that have a tradename.
This discussion has degenerated into pointless shouting. I'm
extremely disappointed. I don't know whether it is the cancer of
social media taking root, that people have to be obnoxious and
extreme and lose all rationality to tribal loyalty, but it's not
pretty. I have no truck with social media for EXACTLY this
reason. Sheepie is right that there's nothing more to be said
because people are obviously incapable of listening, or are
deliberately blocking their ears to anything but confirmation
bias of their position, however specious.
So I'm locking the thread. You can probably expect to see a
story added to this challenge by me, with a child spanked for
deliberately persisting in speaking of his "Legos", for the
simple reason of knowing it annoys his parents. :evil: [/quote]
After all Flag's posturing about truth, the above is his last
word on the ridiculous LEGO/Lego/Legos thread. He supports
Bottom's bullshit analogies and completely ignores my repeated
points. I did not shout. I merely insisted on my points. I
invited him to show me where my points are wrong. He refused to
engage.
I'm sick and tired of people like Flag and Bottom employing
dishonest, unfair rhetoric until they wear down their
interlocutors, who finally abandon the field in disgust. I
joined the argument, not because I give a damn about how anyone
makes the plural of LEGO pieces, but as an experiment: what
would happen if someone refused to back down but instead
insisted on logic and facts?
Now we see. Flag is just as intellectually dishonest as Bottom.
Worse, he uses his prerogative as owner of the MMSA forum to
take the last word. One doesn't establish truth by fiat. I have
to say -- no, really, I do! -- I'm disgusted.
Kat
[/quote]
I did agree with Kat's post.
I haven't followed the argument at MMSA Forums. I try not to
get involved in arguments (Debates) anymore. Any More.
I used to debate (Argue) any side of any argument until I won.
Even when I knew I was wrong, I would argue until I won, and
then tell the other person, everything I just said was wrong. I
had to win. Now I just stay clear of arguments/debates.
I did see that it was said that Lego is a system. System can be
made plural. Systems.
Then I ask, what about individual Lego systems. They have the
space lego. The home lego and I am sure many others, I really
don't follow it. I know my sister has a big bin full of lego
pieces at her daycare. So if I am talking about multiple Lego
systems, wouldn't that be Legos?
All I know is that I know of no one that calls the lego pieces
blocks. Everyone I know calls them legos. Around here, Lego is
the name of the company and legos is the name of the pieces.
Right or wrong, that is how it is used here. When the kids at
my sister's daycare are done playing, she tells them to pick up
the legos and put them away. If she told her 3,4,5 year old's,
to go pick up the bricks and put them away, the kids would look
at her in befuddlement.
I saw the example of Monopoly and Monopolies. I would say great
example but it isn't. Every plural has it's own rules.
We use deer and deer, but we don't use wolf and wolf. Why not?
They are both animals. So why aren't their plurals the same?
Because each one has developed it's own rules over time.
Originally Lego and Lego may have been correct. But over time
and usage, in my part of the world it is lego and legos. Face
it, what are you going to build with one lego? Sometimes a
brand name becomes synonymous with everything that is like it.
Lego is one of those. Lego the brand has become synonymous with
lego the piece. More than one piece is pieces, thus more than
one lego is legos. Whether it is right or wrong. Whether it is
proper grammar or not. It really doesn't matter once society
has come to use a word a certain way, that is now part of the
grammar usage.
Any one/Anyone who wants to keep their language stagnant, I
suggest Latin. Although it wouldn't surprise me if even Latin
is changing now that more and more people are using it.
Just my 2 cents worth.
That was fun. ;D
#Post#: 8430--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: stevieweeks Date: August 28, 2018, 7:34 pm
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HTML https://www.buzzfeed.com/briangalindo/for-anyone-who-loves-lego-here-are-15-fun-facts-about-its?utm_term=.fx213YVErO#.bb2lkQaPZb
#Post#: 25052--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: HumbledBareBoy Date: June 29, 2022, 11:44 pm
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[quote author=stevieweeks link=topic=786.msg8254#msg8254
date=1534992302]The raven quote is referring to the last ungodly
tantrum that roiled MMSA over the use of 'anymore' versus 'any
more'; which occurred some years ago (for the edification of
those who were not present at the time). [/quote]
[quote author=Jack link=topic=786.msg8331#msg8331
date=1535196719]It's said that English is the most widely
studied foreign language in our world. I believe part of the
reason for that is that English IS a living, growing language
which is easily capable of adaption. Sometimes that does lead
to things that one dislikes (I personally detest 'alot' for some
reason).
I can understand Flagellant's desire to have MMSA be a site that
presents proper stories. After all, he's put a lot of effort
into making the site where they're presented look proper. In
the end, my problem is not with that so much, nor even the
specific battles he picks, but with the way he pursues them. In
the end, I have to agree with Plagosus' last two paragraphs.
This is something we all do for fun, and something people read
for fun, so we should try to avoid conflict and just let it be
fun.[/quote]
[quote author=Zyngaru link=topic=786.msg8394#msg8394
date=1535480849]
Whether it is right or wrong. Whether it is proper grammar or
not. It really doesn't matter once society has come to use a
word a certain way, that is now part of the grammar usage. Any
one/Anyone who wants to keep their language stagnant, I suggest
Latin. Although it wouldn't surprise me if even Latin is
changing now that more and more people are using it.
[/quote]
In browsing through this forum's older threads, the current one
caught my eye, for two primary reasons:
[list type=decimal]
[li]I recall having once seen the "anymore vs. any more" section
on MMSA, and I just remembered feeling surprised and regarding
it as rather peculiar at the time. However, being of a pretty
strong formal education, including two sequential grad degrees
in two very dissimilar fields, I personally find it second
nature to use and prioritize correct grammar, etc. Still, THAT
was nonetheless a new one on me... :o[/li]
[li]More depressingly, however...well, let me start here: On
another site I use, I met a fellow author who write some pretty
damn awesome stories that have greatly excited me, turned me on,
and given me considerable enjoyment! Moreover, this man has also
become a regular and highly supportive reading of my MMSA
stories, as well, so I have come to appreciate and care for him
a good amount! ;D As luck would have it, a portion of his
stories would also be on-topic for MMSA, so a few times, I have
attempted to warmly and gently encourage him to try posting one
of his there, too... [emoji7][/li]
[/list]
Unfortunately and sadly, even though his writing is genuinely
enjoyable and pretty d--ned good, but he...does not share in my
esteem of his work... :( ...and indeed, his primary stated
reason for not giving story submission a try is that he is
convinced his writings is of insufficient quality to be "worthy"
-- i.e., "not good enough," as preposterous as I find that
sentiment in his mind! He did go as far as to look over the part
of the site about authorship and story submission, and guess
what?
Stuff like what's mentioned in this very thread was, primarily,
what discourages him. He even specifically mentioned the
"anymore vs. any more" part as being especially influential in
scaring him off! :'( Because I'm not an irritating a-hole, I've
elected not to pester him or push the idea too hard, but I have
not yet given up on the path of "gentle encouragement and
baby-steps," either...
Alas! ::)
#Post#: 25053--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: Kat Date: June 30, 2022, 12:14 am
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That's unfortunate, HBB. MMSA doesn't really have high
standards. It's just that Flag gets on a high horse
periodically, alienates a few more writers to the point they
either pull their stories or just stop writing, and imposes some
arbitrary new rule.
>:( I hope you can persuade your friend to submit some work.
Kat
#Post#: 25054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: ivor Date: June 30, 2022, 2:43 am
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Based on some of the stories that have appeared in the past, I
don't believe there is a quality standard on MMSA. Indeed I
think I've read at some point that all contributions are welcome
and that no check is made on grammar or spelling.
As Kat has said, that was an example of Flag's anti American
bias.
#Post#: 25057--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: David M. Katz Date: June 30, 2022, 7:07 am
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[quote author=ivor link=topic=786.msg25054#msg25054
date=1656575034]
all contributions are welcome and that no check is made on
grammar or spelling.
[/quote]
ALL contributions are welcome. We only review for acceptable
content.
HOWEVER, if I see something egregious as far as spelling/grammar
and it is an established author, I will usually send a note
advising that they might want to consider sending in a
correction. (They usually always do.)
If I see it with an author I know really well and have a
relationship with then I will make an edit and advise them of
such. It is rare that I will edit a story and I have to know the
author really well.
Mostly, we just don't have time to correct spelling grammar for
all of the stories. (On a busy day, I may review 6 - 8
stories.) Also, I feel it isn't ethical to alter another
author's work without permission.
#Post#: 25058--------------------------------------------------
Re: Quoth the Raven: 'Anymore'
By: Adric Date: June 30, 2022, 11:16 am
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[quote author=HumbledBareBoy link=topic=786.msg25052#msg25052
date=1656564272]
He even specifically mentioned the "anymore vs. any more" part
as being especially influential in scaring him off!
[/quote]
It seems a shame that some people consider this to be such a
serious issue, when it is easy to get the word you want in your
published story.
For anyone who doesn't know, putting "any-more" in your RTF file
that you submit will result in the word "anymore" in your
published story.
I have done this with every one of my stories. They all show
"anymore" when it refers to a period of time, and "any more"
when it refers to a quantity.
When I read a story in British English, I hardly notice the many
ways that words are spelled (spelt?) and used differently, but
"any more" now leaps out at me as a result of the issue that has
been made of it at MMSA over the years. A tempest in a teapot,
mountain from a molehill, etc. etc.
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