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#Post#: 14400--------------------------------------------------
Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Kat Date: August 12, 2019, 3:52 pm
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A significant number of US school districts have adopted
corporal punishment policies that replace compulsory cp with
optional cp. In other words, the student has the choice in some
situations between corporal punishment or an alternative. These
programs seem fairly successful, at least to the extent that
students are taking the cp option. Schools argue these programs
are successful because they reduce the number of detentions,
in-school suspensions, and off-campus suspensions.
My question is whether such voluntary corporal punishment can be
successful at a deeper level. Conventional thinking, based on
behaviorist psychology, would argue that the more aversive a
punishment, the more effective it is in changing behavior.
Therefore, the punishment one prefers should never be the
punishment one receives.
However, cognitive dissonance theory suggests that one will feel
more positive about a punishment one chooses. I'd argue that a
positive attitude towards one's punishment more than offsets the
deterrence value of inflicting the more aversive punishment.
Kat
#Post#: 14403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Zyngaru Date: August 12, 2019, 4:17 pm
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It's interesting. If the punishment is desirable then it is
less corrective. If it is disliked it is more corrective. So a
boy who despises being grounded and would prefer to get spanked,
should be grounded to change his behavior. A boy who despises
getting spanked, but is fine with being grounded, should be
spanked to get the most corrective benefit from the punishment.
It makes logical sense, but that doesn't mean it is true. I
wonder what is the truth?
#Post#: 14404--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Kat Date: August 12, 2019, 4:24 pm
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[quote author=Zyngaru link=topic=1421.msg14403#msg14403
date=1565644655]
It's interesting. If the punishment is desirable then it is
less corrective. If it is disliked it is more corrective. So a
boy who despises being grounded and would prefer to get spanked,
should be grounded to change his behavior. A boy who despises
getting spanked, but is fine with being grounded, should be
spanked to get the most corrective benefit from the punishment.
It makes logical sense, but that doesn't mean it is true. I
wonder what is the truth?
[/quote]
Well, first of all, no punishment is desirable. By definition,
punishment must be aversive. My premise is that the punishment
one chooses may be the less aversive but the more effective.
There is clearly no point whatsoever in giving a "punishment"
that a person doesn't mind.
Kat
#Post#: 14405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Jack Date: August 12, 2019, 4:34 pm
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I tend to think tat, wit older kids, punishment in really less
about correcting a behavior tan it is about stressing some
behavior was unacceptable.
In the case of school punishments, I feel tat most alternate
punishments beyond detention are armful because they take the
student out of class for a prolonged period of time.
#Post#: 14408--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Kat Date: August 12, 2019, 4:40 pm
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[quote author=Jack link=topic=1421.msg14405#msg14405
date=1565645689]
I tend to think that, wit older kids, punishment in really less
about correcting a behavior than it is about stressing some
behavior was unacceptable.
In the case of school punishments, I feel that most alternate
punishments beyond detention are armful because they take the
student out of class for a prolonged period of time.
[/quote]
I'd like to move the debate beyond just schools.
What is the difference between "correcting" behavior and
"stressing some behavior is unacceptable"? These terms don't
seem to me to have different meanings.
Kat
#Post#: 14411--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Adric Date: August 12, 2019, 10:32 pm
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I can see why there is another benefit to offering a choice of
punishment, aside from the one Kat mentions of giving the kid a
more positive attitude. Presumably the school has attempted to
make the two punishments roughly equivalent so that the two are
chosen equally often (50-50). However, there may be a reason
that a particular student finds one of the two much more severe
for him than the other for reasons the school is not likely to
be aware of. Perhaps if he has a detention he misses the school
bus, has to walk three miles home, and his parents are furious
with him for coming home late and are going to give him a
licking. Another kid has no adverse impact from a stay in
detention hall but he is terrified of CP. The school, however,
thinks the two punishments are equivalent. If they really think
they are equivalent then why not allow the choice?
#Post#: 14420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Jack Date: August 13, 2019, 7:19 am
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[quote author=Kat link=topic=1421.msg14408#msg14408
date=1565646041]
What is the difference between "correcting" behavior and
"stressing some behavior is unacceptable"? These terms don't
seem to me to have different meanings.
[/quote]
It is a subtle difference, and it might not actually be a
difference. To me, younger children are still learning the
rules. Older children know the rules. With younger children,
you're teaching them through repetition and sometimes through
painful reinforcement. With older kids, I think you really
could talk to them in many cases. The problem is, I think that
it sometimes needs a firm reinforcement beyond just talking.
I guess what it comes down to with me is that I see punishment
with younger children about showing them that they have to
remember and follow the rules. With older children, kids who
are more able to make their own decisions, it's more about
getting them to consider what's acceptable or not and why.
Maybe it is no difference, and it's definitely not easy to
express, but that's how I think about it.
#Post#: 14437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Plagosus Date: August 14, 2019, 4:05 am
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When they were discussing outlawing cp in the UK some proposed
that it should be available if parents agreed. The idea was, I
think rightly, shouted down. I think that for any given offence
the type of punishment should be the same for everyone.
#Post#: 14440--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Zyngaru Date: August 14, 2019, 8:44 am
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[quote author=Plagosus link=topic=1421.msg14437#msg14437
date=1565773519]
I think that for any given offence the type of punishment
should be the same for everyone.
[/quote]
At one time I would have agreed with you, but I have discovered
that standardized punishment doesn't work. It has to be
tailored to the individual.
Example. One of my Nieces has two boys 4 and 5 years old. A
spanking works for the 5 year old. He breaks down even before
you spank him. The 4 year old on the other hand, just smiles at
you after you spank him. His goal in life is to frustrate
people and his brother is his main target but he enjoys
frustrating adults also. So getting spanked along with his
brother is fine with him, just so long as he can get his brother
spanked and crying. Now if you isolate him away from his
brother, that drives him crazy. If you isolate him away from
everyone it works even better. He hates being away from people
he can torment. But spanking him, does absolutely nothing. He
will just stand looking at you with a smile after. The brother
that spanking works on, isolating him doesn't work. He enjoys
being by himself. So you can't give these two boys the same
punishment for the same offense. It just doesn't work to their
personalities.
That might be one of the problems with the criminal justice
system. Standardized punishment might not be working. But then
how do you write individualized punishment into the criminal
code?
#Post#: 14446--------------------------------------------------
Re: Choosing Corporal Punishment
By: Kat Date: August 14, 2019, 10:36 am
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[quote author=Plagosus link=topic=1421.msg14437#msg14437
date=1565773519]
When they were discussing outlawing cp in the UK some proposed
that it should be available if parents agreed. The idea was, I
think rightly, shouted down. I think that for any given offence
the type of punishment should be the same for everyone.
[/quote]
Giving the choice to the student and not just the parent is a
very different proposition. Even before schools began to adopt a
formal policy of voluntary cp, students could ask informally to
"burn off" detentions in some schools.
I'm not convinced it's even possible to give the same punishment
to everyone. Some will be exempt from corporal punishment
because of physical or psychological issues, for instance. Some
students can't do detentions for logistical reasons. Also, there
is bound to be unevenness in punishment because individuals
aren't the same. Some teachers and administrators tend to be
more lenient in assigning punishment; others tend towards
harshness. In administering cp, some teachers will inflict more
painful punishments than others. Also, individual students will
experience punishments subjectively.
What has proved to be a singular failure in the US is the
creation of "zero tolerance" policies, which mandate the same
punishment for the same offense. Such policies have resulted in
spectacular failures. The idea had a noble basis, which was to
eliminate biases -- particularly racial biases -- in punishment.
But, as Fairchild the chauffeur tells his daughter Sabrina,
"Democracy can be a wickedly unfair thing."
Kat
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