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       #Post#: 4516--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: kalico Date: March 20, 2018, 8:03 pm
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       I’m glad y’all had a heart to heart and it went well..... sounds
       all fair
       Hugs kal
       #Post#: 4522--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Zyngaru Date: March 20, 2018, 9:42 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Peer pressure is such a heavy thing for teens. Its heavy on
       others as well, but for teens, wanting to fit in and feel
       grownup and independent, at least in front of friends, is even
       heavier.
       Sometimes we forget that peer pressure is more than peers
       getting you to do things you are not supposed to do, but also
       things you know you should do but are worried about how peers
       will view it.  (Calling you that he would be late, or answering
       your call to him.)
       I agree with the taking the car keys away.  I didn't think about
       it until now, but since I just thought of it, I will throw it
       out there and let you consider if it has merit or not.  Since
       the problem was over the weekend when his friends were available
       to hang out with him and let him drive them around, I was
       thinking instead of his car grounding being through the week, it
       would be over the weekend.
       I do see he is grounded from the car through Sunday, so it
       amounts to the same thing.  He won't be able to drive his
       friends around this coming weekend.
       #Post#: 4528--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Jack Date: March 21, 2018, 4:35 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=db105 link=topic=10.msg4511#msg4511
       date=1521583939]
       Well, I'm sure getting his phone back made him happy. He
       probably missed that more than the car, don't you think?
       [quote]he didn't answer because he didn't want to 'look like a
       'b... ca... wuss' in front of the other guys.[/quote]
       ;D Teenagers!
       [/quote]
       DB, I think he probably did miss his phone a lot, though I try
       to keep my kids from becoming too dependent on it.  They're not
       allowed at the dinner call (I normally don't even answer mine,
       unless I'm expecting an important call, and I will occasionally
       make that exception for one of the boys, though they have to
       explain why the call they're expecting is so important).  We've
       reached the point now where none of the boys are allowed to have
       their phones towards bedtime.  Most of the boys (besides Connor
       and Curtis) need about 8 or 8 1/2, with us starting the day
       about 6:30, so I expect them to put their phones down (and turn
       off the computers and games) by about 9pm.  After a couple of
       times when I've stepped in with a specific time most of the boys
       are pretty good about sticking to that (believe me, you don't
       want Dad checking to see if you have put it down, and taking it
       from you if not, much less making you bring it to you, taking it
       at supper, or adding a swat or two with the paddle).
       Yeah - the worst part about the whole thing is, I pointed out he
       could have just stepped out of the car so he didn't have to talk
       to me with the boys right there.  I also pointed out that he
       could have called and asked for permission, or even just texted
       me to let me know what was going on, and he would have avoided
       most of the trouble.  He had a V-8 moment at that point.
       #Post#: 4536--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: David M. Katz Date: March 21, 2018, 3:42 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I think you handled Liam well.
       With older boys CP can often be the easy way out.  I think it
       was Kat who once suggested that CP fr older teens should be
       reserved for minor issues.
       I think it is all about knowing the boy and you seemed to have
       nailed it with Liam.
       #Post#: 4540--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Jack Date: March 21, 2018, 4:00 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=David M. Katz link=topic=10.msg4536#msg4536
       date=1521664943]
       With older boys CP can often be the easy way out.  I think it
       was Kat who once suggested that CP fr older teens should be
       reserved for minor issues.
       [/quote]
       I know Kat once said, 'just because something isn't the most
       effective doesn't mean it's not effective,' or something like
       that.  That's how I look at CP for the older boys.
       For the most part, you probably know that I see CP as a
       consequence.  With an older kid, they probably know that they
       screwed up, and they understand that they need to correct their
       behavior.  I see the paddle as a way to put an exclamation point
       at the end of our discussion, so we can just move on.  While I
       think CP is generally effective with Liam (he was bawling when
       we had the phone trouble back in February
  HTML https://jackshouse.createaforum.com/botd/botd-2018122-catching-a-virus-a-jack-production/<br
       />), but this case he just totally came off wrong.  I guess it's
       that, if a kid seems to be taking their correction for granted,
       it doesn't seem like it's working.
       I don't mind using it even for more major problems, but I do
       think that there are times when you need something that lasts a
       bit longer.
       #Post#: 5826--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Jack Date: May 22, 2018, 4:33 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Liam and I had some trouble this weekend.
       Remember a couple of weeks ago, when he took off to get dinner,
       and ended up coming home several hours later and after curfew?
       Remember that he's now required to turn in and stick to an
       itinerary when he 'hangs' with his friends?  You do?  I ask,
       because apparently he doesn't.
       We got in a big disagreement Friday night, because he decided he
       wanted to drive to Deadpool, so he and his friends could go 'get
       something to eat or something' after the movie.  I told him no.
       He asked why.
       I explained that first, he was supposed to plan these things out
       ahead of time in detail.  This plan most definitely didn't match
       that.  Second, he was supposed to get that approved ahead of
       time, and we were supposed to be leaving for the movie in about
       15 minutes.
       He then tried explaining to me how unreasonable I was, so I
       reminded him of exactly why he was in this situation.  He rolled
       his eyes.  I offered to let him stay home.
       I thought we were done then, though I did talk to him a bit to
       make sure we each understood the same thing on him giving me
       notice and time to approve plans before hand.  That's not to say
       that I won't let him do something on short notice, but not when
       there are a dozen other things going on, and not when it's as
       vague as what he'd suggested.
       Everything seemed okay for a short while, then Saturday night,
       he started up again.  He and and Kevin Bartlett wanted to get
       together, call a few other guys, go see if anyone was at the
       mall or Putt Putt, then maybe....  I stopped him there.  'No.'
       I reminded him that I hadn't grounded him, but that he was now
       having to turn in a detailed itinerary because he can't be on
       time and be where he said he'd be.  What he needed to do was
       decide what they wanted to do, right that down for me, and I'd
       probably tell him yes at that point.
       Let me point out here that he'd already done that once the
       weekend before, and it seemed to go fine, as far as I could
       tell.
       Instead of just listening and doing as he should, he starting
       arguing with me, and he kept it up long enough to spend Saturday
       night in his room with no electronics.  Even then, he had to be
       offered the choice of a paddling to go with it if he didn't
       quite backtalking before he left.
       I made him stay home Sunday as well, though I let him have his
       phone and a couple of his friends came over.  I'm sure they all
       agreed about how unreasonable I'm being.
       [hr]
       I have given this some thought, and I think I understand what's
       going on here.
       Their mom died nearly two years ago.  I believe his (adopted
       step) father passed away a couple of years before that, when
       Liam was probably 13.  I know he went through some behavior
       problems at that point, which is understandable.
       I've heard it said a number of times that people suppress trauma
       until they feel safe.  I remember one of my cats had hurt her
       leg somehow, and she was limping and acting pretty pitiful.
       When we got her to the vet, everything seemed normal.  We
       figured out what was wrong with her, but he explained that
       animals are nervous about appearing weak in an insecure
       environment.  They might let you know they feel bad, because
       they trust you, but they won't want to admit it to the vet
       because they feel threatened, so they want to look strong.
       People are kind of the same way - the mind suppresses things
       when it feels unsafe, because it wants us to be able to do with
       whatever's the reason for the lack of safety.
       When I first met Liam, his real concern was keeping his brothers
       together and seeing they were taken care of.  I think, at this
       point, he understands that they are safe and secure.  What I
       don't know is if he's reverting to his old, bad habits; or if
       he's finally working through his own trauma; or if he's acting
       out for attention; or if he's testing me; or if it's something
       else entirely.
       Liam has a session with his therapist this week.  I've already
       sent an e-mail to the therapist giving him a general idea of
       what's been going on, and that Liam's behavior seems to have
       changed in the last few months.  He's going to evaluate if this
       is a problem, or just fairly normal teenage behavior, as well as
       whether Liam might benefit from more frequent sessions for a
       while.
       We'll see where it goes from there.
       #Post#: 5831--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Adric Date: May 22, 2018, 9:05 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I feel a lot of sympathy for Liam's situation, and it doesn't
       seem to me that it is a matter for a therapist.  I'm sure I
       don't fully understand the situation, but from what I've read I
       would also find those travel restrictions very difficult to deal
       with.  I would deal with them differently than he did, but not
       necessarily in a better way.  (I would probably choose
       self-imposed grounding over being on a "short leash" and having
       my friends know just how short it is.)
       #Post#: 5832--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: db105 Date: May 22, 2018, 10:11 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Hmm... yes, it doesn't seem so out of the ordinary for a
       teenager to have this kind of clashes with an authority figure.
       However,  since he is seeing a therapist it makes sense to
       mention it to him, to see what he makes of it.
       #Post#: 5835--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Jack Date: May 22, 2018, 1:08 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The reason I'm mentioning it to the therapist is not the
       behavior per se, but because it seems like a very drastic change
       in just a few months.  My personal opinion is that basically the
       honeymoon is over, and he's gone from a helpful, cheery angel to
       what he would have been like all along.  While it's a pain in my
       butt (and likely to become a pain in his), it's also good news,
       because it probably does mean that he feels like he's safe and
       at home.
       As for the restriction, Adric - if I were him, I'd just say,
       'Nah, my dad's making me jump through all these hoops 'cause I
       was late a couple of times, but at least I'm not grounded."
       My intentions in doing this are to avoid grounding him, and to
       give him a chance to show me that he can be responsible.  Maybe
       I need to talk to him a bit more, while we're both calm, and
       explain that.
       #Post#: 5839--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Liam Marsh Wells
       By: Zyngaru Date: May 22, 2018, 3:55 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Jack link=topic=10.msg5835#msg5835
       date=1527012510]
       As for the restriction, Adric - if I were him, I'd just say,
       'Nah, my dad's making me jump through all these hoops 'cause I
       was late a couple of times, but at least I'm not grounded."
       My intentions in doing this are to avoid grounding him, and to
       give him a chance to show me that he can be responsible.  Maybe
       I need to talk to him a bit more, while we're both calm, and
       explain that.
       [/quote]
       I agree with the Restriction comment.  Put the blame on the
       adult in the room.  "Dad's gone all authoritarian and making
       life rough on me right now."  I think most kids understand that
       statement.
       As for having another talk with Liam.  I think that is a good
       idea.  There is no telling what is going through his head as to
       why you are insisting him give you an itinerary.  So, making it
       clear to him that you are trying to go easy on him and you, with
       the itinerary thing so you don't have to ground him for being
       late and not checking in with you.  Try to get him to see it as
       he is getting off easy.  At least he can see his friends this
       way.
       Hopefully you don't get the common comeback.  "It ain't fair.
       You're not being fair.  You're being unrealistic."
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