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#Post#: 1829--------------------------------------------------
Education Errata
By: RE Date: November 24, 2021, 7:24 pm
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Kickoff article for this topic here on GC. We had a whole board
dedicated to it on the Diner
HTML https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/colleges-must-adapt-to-post-pandemic-reality-as-enrollment-plunges.html
As college enrollment plunges, schools must adapt to
post-pandemic reality
Covid has certainly accelerated this problem, but in reality
there have been diminishing returns for most HS graduates for at
least 20 years, as the costs have skyrocketed, the debt load
necessary to get the sheepskin increased and the number of jobs
available that could support that debt load shrank.
If you have a parent who can finance you; if you can get into a
top rated school, the Future's so Bright you gotta wear shades.
This might be 1% of the population. For everybody else
attending Community Colleges or taking an Online Law Degree,
it's a total focking waste of money and time. HS graduates are
now grasping this reality and opting out of this generally fake
ticket to a better life.
University level education is reverting to what it traditionally
always was: A way for the Aristocracy and Elite to train their
own children to be the next generation of Rulers. The idea you
could educate EVERYONE to be a Ruler is preposterous. You only
need a tiny number of Rulers in a society, but you need a LOT of
Drone Worker Bees.
Community Colleges are NOT a place you become educated anymore,
if they ever were. They are Job Training Factories for Worker
Bees. Every kid I have met going to a CC after HS picks some
track for a job that pays a little better than flipping burgers
at Mickey Ds. Often these days in the Medical Industry. Dental
Hygenist. Ultrasound Tech etc.. And then the Holy Grail,
NURSE! Here they have to learn a whole lotta shyt they never
use and don't need to know, because all the job really entails
is following the Doctor's Order for meds. If you can set up an
IV drip and record it in the database, that's it! lol. You do
not need to know all the drug interactions possible, in fact
it's better you don't, because if you question the Doctor's
order, your ass is grass.
For this "great job" some of my younger PCAs aspire to, maybe
they can earn $60-80K, but while working as a PCA and going to
Uni part time it will take them 6-8 years just to get this
ticket. Then they gotta spend another 10 years paying off the
loans. So it's 15-20 years before they can see any real economic
improvement . Can't afford to buy a McHovel or raise a family
until mid-30s, at best.
So, more HS grads are opting out of getting on this Squirrel
Wheel. Which then makes it harder to replace the ones who quit,
die or retire. Perpetual Shortage ensues.
It's another Demographic problem, which grows too slow for most
people to grasp, like they cannot grasp exponential growth. At
some point though, it reaches Critical Mass.
RE
#Post#: 1836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: November 25, 2021, 11:00 am
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My kids are too young for this to be top of mind, but I do have
topped up savings accounts for them already. Canada still has a
mostly subsidized "college" system which we would refer to as
University with pretty good end results still. There are degrees
that have better outcomes of course there always have been. If
they can take the studying and it speaks to them I will push for
stem programs. One would do well if she has the drive for it.
The other is more social but does well academically. We will
see. The college system here is more trades and skills related
and seems to be very successful. It is also very subsidized and
linked to the relevant industries who are desperate for trained
people. Where the system seems to fall down is in guiding people
into a good path. There are far too many under employed people
who face a lifetime of under acheiving jobs with little
security. Always worrying about automation and foreign cheap
wage outsourcing...
#Post#: 1838--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Cam Date: November 25, 2021, 11:34 am
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I'm still in the system right now. I followed the generic advice
out of highschool which was "do what you love". The issue is I
am interested in just about everything. Psychology was one of my
big ones though so I went for that. I got a bachelors degree at
my local university which took from 2016-2020. Had a lot of fun
and learned a ton...but the job prospects weren't amazing
without further education such as a master's in clinical psych
or branching off into occupational therapy or speech pathology.
There is some money in research too but that is a long road -
too long for my patience. I also wouldn't want to devote so much
of my life to a single specific topic, that is just not how I
roll.
In third year of my degree I decided to explore the trades,
because I was learning that I really do not like sitting still
all day. My uncle recommended electrical as its easy on your
body relative to most other trades. So I gave it a shot and I
loved it. I took the a pre apprenticeship program at my local
college and had lots of fun. That will be my career I think. I
tried applying to the union this year but no luck. I will give
it another go next year.
Meanwhile I am taking a welding course this fall all the way
into next summer. We're learning everything! Stick, MIG, TIG,
flame cutting and welding, plasma cutting (so so cool), brazing,
and more. So now even if electrical isn't working out for
whatever reason I have another skill at the ready. I'm gonna be
a darn good hobbyist welder now that's for sure.
I think I might also get a DZ or AZ licence. It's another
marketable skill and that just looks so fun to me. There are
ALWAYS jobs posted for licensed truck drivers where I am,
usually construction companies needing dump truck drivers. Pays
quite well and the license doesn't seem to take too long to get
either.
I am completely debt free as well, but that is half luck and
half frugality. Having a college and university in my hometown
has made it easy to live at home and work part time to pay
tuition.
#Post#: 1840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: November 25, 2021, 12:09 pm
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[quote author=BuddyJ link=topic=86.msg1839#msg1839
date=1637861814]
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=86.msg1836#msg1836
date=1637859623]
My kids are too young for this to be top of mind, but I do have
topped up savings accounts for them already. Canada still has a
mostly subsidized "college" system which we would refer to as
University with pretty good end results still. There are degrees
that have better outcomes of course there always have been. If
they can take the studying and it speaks to them I will push for
stem programs.
[/quote]
STEM works fine, locally we hire folks who have a major or
Masters in one thing, and then another degree to compliment it.
Economics and stats for example. Engineering and economics.
Rarely are computer degrees necessary, as understanding them,
using them, using software, this knowledge appears to
incorporated in most college degrees nowadays. Whereas my
expertise was once state of the art, I am now a dinosaur.
[quote author=Nearings Fault]
Where the system seems to fall down is in guiding people into a
good path. There are far too many under employed people who face
a lifetime of under acheiving jobs with little security. Always
worrying about automation and foreign cheap wage outsourcing...
[/quote]
I always figured guiding to a good path is a parental thing. If
all you have to sell is your labor, you don't have anything
worth selling in the modern world.
[/quote]
I completely agree with you but what do you do as a society if
the modelling some kids have at home absolutely sucks? Do you
just wash your hands of them and pay their way through for the
rest of their lives or do you try and intervene? Canada is a
very socialist ish country so there are a lot of benefits. The
system relies on people doing better as they age to pay it all
back in taxes. If low acheivers are forever on the dole of one
sort or another it all falls apart eventually. So, I think
society has a vested interest in upping their level of
acheivement. It's a balancing act between nanny state and self
actualization though...
#Post#: 1842--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: November 25, 2021, 12:59 pm
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Again we completely agree. I have family in the southern US and
it always reminds me of a pressure cooker waiting to explode.
I've had some acquaintance s f on Denmark and Norway and it
seems like a claustrophobic nanny state... People get used to
their own fish bowl I suppose. I do find that US doom news
overshadows everything due to sheer population and economic
reach. The suttle local flavour of doom from a Canadian
perspective is what I look for now as well as Monsta and the
Australian contingent. I do like seeing Cam drop in and I do
still miss C5 even if we sometimes disagreed on speed and
trajectory...
Cheers,. NF
#Post#: 1847--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Phil Potts Date: November 25, 2021, 2:55 pm
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[quote author=BuddyJ link=topic=86.msg1833#msg1833
date=1637855287]
Are Eddy and I the only one here who have college educated kids
and can speak to this issue with experience? Surely we aren't
the only 2?
I can discuss two college graduated kids, how they handled debt,
their work histories, salaries, advancement through the modern
workplace, and none of it looks like what has been opined by
someone with...how many kids through college, and how recently?
I could also discuss my own experience, but I believe it is
outdated in the modern work environment.
I can also discuss two modern working environments, one research
heavy (75% PhDs), one application driven (30% PhDs),the value
and type of college degrees and the degrees preferred for those
positions, the level of education required, age, sex, experience
levels with 3 current hiring experiences (engineering and
economics, MBA specializing in communications, a pure
economist), etc etc. Anyone want to discuss what we know and
can converse about at the personal and professional level, or is
random bullshitting on what journalists (cough cough, giggle
giggle) "know" the best we can do?
[/quote]
"If you have a parent who can finance you, the futures so bright
you gotta wear shades."
I can join you and Eddie in proving what RE said there re my
spawn. Cam also talking about being very lucky to still be
living with parents.
You didn't seem to bother reading the article that cites tons of
real figures and interviews people saying it is also all about
very much about this distinction. Still tell us, I'm interested.
You said your son works at Amazon and lives with you while still
studying right? Your daughter recently decided to "take her
qualifications for a spin" and had 3 interviews in 3 days? You
said something about her recently taking a course with no help
from you or your wife as well. Paid for by employer, husband, or
tax deductible expense then? Did she do detailed applications
addressing selection criteria or just send out resumes. Were all
the interviews in the same city, or online?
Eddie often talks about various adult kids moving home. Nothing
wrong with that, very nice to have happening, but it also proves
the point that RE and the article are making. It's a luxury not
everyone enjoys. There are homes people can't wait to get out of
or are kicked out of. Many are expected to start helping with
the bills around 16 or 17. That's often a parents medical bills.
They are expected to do that whether they stay or are sent away.
They never were competing on a level playing field, so I'm
reminded of Surly's old saying about starting life on third base
and hitting a home run.
The other factor to explain the huge drop in enrolments that
didn't get mentioned, is the same reason so many people are now
leaving their jobs or being sacked.
MSNBC even ran another story on them not coming back if it means
they have to get vax, but I can't find it now. Theres this
though:
HTML https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/
#Post#: 1848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: K-Dog Date: November 25, 2021, 3:13 pm
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[quote]The drop-off last year was not unexpected amid the early
stages of the pandemic, but a cumulative 6.6% drop over two
years has raised concerns that fewer Americans see the value of
post-secondary education.[/quote]
From RE's article.
The concern of not being able to pay for it appears to be
disregarded. People have no jobs, no money. Current reporting
on mass resignations are all about jobs with zero benefits and
**** pay.
If things continue in the direction of American oligarchic
mismanagement, then I hope something like the gilets jaunes
emerges in America. People quitting jobs because they are
treated like slaves for pay which in no way justifies their
sacrifice is a symptom of unrest to come. Foundational
collapse. System breakdown. Sand in the gears.
People have lost faith in the future but everyone is still in
shock. They would go for education if they could pay for it
easy, because what else is there to do? Play video games all
day? Or educate yourself for free. Like me. If you are lazy
video games are good enough. But they are not good enough for
me. But paying for education in a dying society? How much sense
does that make. There is no payoff.
#Post#: 1849--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: RE Date: November 25, 2021, 4:43 pm
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Cam's experience as well as Eddie's daughter are illustrative of
many of the points I made.
In Cam's case, he was able to get a 4 year degree by living home
with parents and getting a state supported education in the
quasi socialist Great White North. So pretty much debt free at
the moment. Still, that education didn't offer much in the way
of good job opportunities, so he elected to continue education,
moving over to the trades, specifically Welding. When he
graduates that program fully trained, what kind of salary can he
expect?
Here in the FSoA, the median salary for Welders is $41K. Range
between $35K & $60K for the most part. This translates to around
$20/hr, and straight out of HS now Amazon will pay $17hr.
Assuming he can find a good welding job after graduation, it
will still take a few years to be at the higher end of the pay
scale. Even that salary though is barely middle class and won't
buy you a McMansion. He'll be 25-30 before he could even
consider marriage on the economic level, and that's only if his
wife also works, making a similar amount. And that is a best
case scenario for the graduate with no debt.
For Eddie's daughter, she has been a perpetual student for a
decade already, now planning to go to Med Skule. That's another
4 years, and a year of Internship and another of Residency after
that. She has lived at home for most of these years also. Add
it all up, she's easily 35 before she's out working as a Doc,
and only low on debt because of 15 years worth of free rent and
food from Eddie.
These examples although illustrative are just anecdotal. The
real problem is in the statistics the OP article detailed.
Enrollments ARE dropping, and quite rapidly. This means fewer
small colleges can employ fewer teachers, and they end up going
outta biz. That means fewer spots available for recent HS grads
who might want to get on this merry-go-round. There is no
guaranteed payoff for doing so either, the only guarantee here
is unless you have good parental support financially along the
way, you'll have a huge debt load to pay off that is not
dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Meanwhile, if you can live at home and eat for free on your
parents dime after HS, you could earn $140K in 4 years flipping
burgers at Mickey D's You'll need some money to buy your gas
and pay your cell phone bill of course, unless parents also hand
over some money for that also. So why leave the nest?
You wonder why reproductive rates are falling? The best years
for females to put one in the oven are between 20-30. They're
still not finished with Skule yet! Only the dumb ones who don't
use some contraception get preggers right out of HS or even in
Junior High. Then if they can get the dick who knocked them up
to marry, he also is in deep shit trying to support both the
wife and kid. These folks don't generally make the best
parents. The single moms at least get state support though.
That's the dynamic in the black community, in a nutshell.
I expect continuing decrease in young people going on for
further education, and a continuing and increasing worker bee
shortage as time moves on here.
RE
#Post#: 2079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Cam Date: December 15, 2021, 2:33 pm
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Somehow I missed your reply RE. I'm taking welding to get better
at a hobby, not as a career. I'm going into electrical for that,
mostly because of all the trades it's the easiest on your body.
There's the risk of shock and carpal tunnel from twisting wires
together, but compared to the other trades (lung cancer for
welding, bad knees and back for carpentry etc) I'd say it's
pretty good.
I applied to the union last year but didn't get in sadly. Just
called today to see what the process is for next year's
application. I've heard the acceptance rate is higher for repeat
applicants because they know you're really interested and not
just tossing an application in. Worst case I don't get in again,
and begin my hunt in my hometown for businesses looking to take
on an apprentice. If absolutely no one can take me as an
apprentice (there are 42 businesses in my area so this is not
too likely) i will ask my favored businesses when they foresee a
position opening up. Say one business has an apprentice moving
to another company in 4 months from now. I just work as a
laborer/helper, and that way the owner can see my work ethic and
punctuality and all that. Then i hopefully take that person's
spot once they're out of there. That's the plan at least.
Financially I know I will do well. Keeping debt levels low and
living well below my means should keep things going smoothly.
Basically the plan is to be earning a solid middle class income
but spending far less than a typical middle class person. Then
investing a lot of the extra, probably in Dogecoin. Okay no not
Dogecoin, i have other plans but that would be funny. I'm also
hanging around the early retirement extreme forums which is a
great spot to learn about living frugally and investing, usually
for the long-term.
#Post#: 2080--------------------------------------------------
Re: Education Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: December 15, 2021, 2:45 pm
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[quote author=Cam link=topic=86.msg2079#msg2079 date=1639600430]
Somehow I missed your reply RE. I'm taking welding to get better
at a hobby, not as a career. I'm going into electrical for that,
mostly because of all the trades it's the easiest on your body.
There's the risk of shock and carpal tunnel from twisting wires
together, but compared to the other trades (lung cancer for
welding, bad knees and back for carpentry etc) I'd say it's
pretty good.
I applied to the union last year but didn't get in sadly. Just
called today to see what the process is for next year's
application. I've heard the acceptance rate is higher for repeat
applicants because they know you're really interested and not
just tossing an application in. Worst case I don't get in again,
and begin my hunt in my hometown for businesses looking to take
on an apprentice. If absolutely no one can take me as an
apprentice (there are 42 businesses in my area so this is not
too likely) i will ask my favored businesses when they foresee a
position opening up. Say one business has an apprentice moving
to another company in 4 months from now. I just work as a
laborer/helper, and that way the owner can see my work ethic and
punctuality and all that. Then i hopefully take that person's
spot once they're out of there. That's the plan at least.
Financially I know I will do well. Keeping debt levels low and
living well below my means should keep things going smoothly.
Basically the plan is to be earning a solid middle class income
but spending far less than a typical middle class person. Then
investing a lot of the extra, probably in Dogecoin. Okay no not
Dogecoin, i have other plans but that would be funny. I'm also
hanging around the early retirement extreme forums which is a
great spot to learn about living frugally and investing, usually
for the long-term.
[/quote]
I like the money mustache guy. He had high high-tech income for
his original nest egg but he puts out a solid blog... I've found
his reflections on financial fear very helpful.
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