URI:
   DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Global Collapse
  HTML https://globalcollapse.createaforum.com
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       *****************************************************
   DIR Return to: General Discussion
       *****************************************************
       #Post#: 1352--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: RE Date: October 21, 2021, 11:06 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.
       What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's
       Choice.  You are drowning with 2 kids.  You can only save 1, if
       you try to save both, all 3 of you will drown.  So you pick one
       to save, and let the other one go.  This is very good for you
       and the saved one, very bad for the dead one.
       Not a lot different for distributing out the coal or NG.  If we
       ship coal from here on the Last Great Frontier to China to keep
       their lights on, we can't ship it to India to do the same for
       them.  We only can mine the coal so fast, and there are a
       limited number of ships to load it onto.  Fortunately of course
       we don't need the coal, because we have plenty of NG we cannot
       ship anywhere because we don't have a plant to liquify the NG
       and no terminal to pump it onto ships.  Both are unlikely to be
       built anytime soon.
       So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but
       the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.  Who do you
       choose?  Which child will you save?
       Abigail Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the
       problem of how you can do good when there just is not enough
       around to do good for everyone.  Back in Biblical times, there
       are stories of people who ate their children to avoid starvation
       themselves.  Is that good or bad?  In a resource depleted
       economy that is contracting, everybody's life comes at the
       expense of someone else who dies.  Is it good to sacrifice your
       own life so someone else might live?  If it is your own child, I
       think many (though not all) people would do that.  But how many
       would give their own life to save a starving child in
       Afghanistan?
       Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a
       good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with
       a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do
       though will never be enough, short of course of joining the
       Voluntary Extinction  Movement, whose Motto is, "Save the
       Pllanet.  Kill Yourself." lol.
       Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to do good?
       RE
       #Post#: 1353--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: K-Dog Date: October 22, 2021, 12:09 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=BuddyJ link=topic=73.msg1350#msg1350
       date=1634852752]
       [quote author=RE link=topic=73.msg1343#msg1343 date=1634783183]
       [quote author=K-Dog link=topic=73.msg1341#msg1341
       date=1634777445]
       I agree with the **** -up electronic meat monkey brain riding
       the back of a tiger comparison.
       COVID denialism which Rebecca talks about in the first video
       makes it crystal clear.  People are walking around with
       unlicensed brains.
       [/quote]
       I think you need to go back to why about ALL cultures, civilized
       or not believe in a God or Gods.
       RE
       [/quote]
  HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory
       Probably explains incessant doom mongering as well.
       [/quote]
       I have exchanged emails with Sheldon Solomon.
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/user/ernestbecker/about
       Our need to avoid death is built in.  I am totally on board with
       terror management theory.  I was influential in getting an
       interview for Sheldon.
       Awareness of death engenders debilitating terror “managed” by
       the development and maintenance of worldviews.  Awareness of
       death makes it difficult for the common person to understand
       doom.  They won't think about it and you can't make them.
       #Post#: 1354--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: Phil Potts Date: October 22, 2021, 3:41 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=RE link=topic=73.msg1352#msg1352 date=1634875616]
       That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.
       What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's
       Choice.  You are drowning with 2 kids.  You can only save 1, if
       you try to save both, all 3 of you will drown.  So you pick one
       to save, and let the other one go.  This is very good for you
       and the saved one, very bad for the dead one.
       Not a lot different for distributing out the coal or NG.  If we
       ship coal from here on the Last Great Frontier to China to keep
       their lights on, we can't ship it to India to do the same for
       them.  We only can mine the coal so fast, and there are a
       limited number of ships to load it onto.  Fortunately of course
       we don't need the coal, because we have plenty of NG we cannot
       ship anywhere because we don't have a plant to liquify the NG
       and no terminal to pump it onto ships.  Both are unlikely to be
       built anytime soon.
       So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but
       the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.  Who do you
       choose?  Which child will you save?
       Abigail Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the
       problem of how you can do good when there just is not enough
       around to do good for everyone.  Back in Biblical times, there
       are stories of people who ate their children to avoid starvation
       themselves.  Is that good or bad?  In a resource depleted
       economy that is contracting, everybody's life comes at the
       expense of someone else who dies.  Is it good to sacrifice your
       own life so someone else might live?  If it is your own child, I
       think many (though not all) people would do that.  But how many
       would give their own life to save a starving child in
       Afghanistan?
       Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a
       good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with
       a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do
       though will never be enough, short of course of joining the
       Voluntary Extinction  Movement, whose Motto is, "Save the
       Pllanet.  Kill Yourself." lol.
       Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to do good?
       RE
       [/quote]
       The choice has been made by the UN, G20, Paris agreement.
       Carboneutral for middle age median, low fertility, gas guzzling,
       thermostat setting, SUV driving without passengers, empty rooms
       dwelling, mRNA injecting western world by 2030.
       Teen or twenties median, emigrant exporting, cheap
       manufacturing, lightly polluting per capita, traditional vaccine
       taking, 'emerging economies' by 2060. This probably means
       exporting fossil fuels and hoping windmills do the job
       domestically. If bills get too high to pay, sit on the porch
       shirtless in summer and wear a sheepskin onesie in winter. Not
       inside out like this guy.
  HTML https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/kremlin-says-putin-will-not-fly-glasgow-cop26-2021-10-20/
       [attachment deleted by admin]
       #Post#: 1357--------------------------------------------------
       Hundreds of kids and their families are riding a bicycle bus to 
       school in Barcelona
       By: RE Date: October 22, 2021, 6:32 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Here's a nice upbeat story to relieve your Doom Gloominess for
       the day. :)
       Hundreds of kids and their families are riding a bicycle bus to
       school in Barcelona
  HTML https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/1047341052/barcelona-bicibus-kids-parents-bike-ride-to-school
       Up here on the last great frontier, we can do bikes in the
       summer, cross country skis in the winter!  Also dogsled buses
       for the preschoolers!
       RE
       #Post#: 1358--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: Digwe Must Date: October 22, 2021, 1:04 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=RE link=topic=73.msg1352#msg1352 date=1634875616]
       That's a practical answer, but it is, yes, a cop out.
       What you are faced with here is a kind of global Sophie's
       Choice.
       [b]I disagree, not surprisingly.  My point is that we have much
       more power over the individual choices we make.  I can't impact
       shipping Australian coal to China.  I can't impact the growing
       tensions in the region.  The people who make these decisions
       don't listen to me.  Those who are committed to conflict on an
       international scale don't listen to me - or you.  They move
       piles of wealth from one spot to another without any thought for
       the poor and desperate, mine all the resources out from under
       native people, prepare for war that will decimate the poor first
       and have no thought or care for the future.  We know how the
       movie ends.
       For me, I can help many more people by putting my efforts into
       learning and teaching alternative ways for people to manage the
       food, water, shelter and security challenges that they face.
       This where I can do the most good, as I see it.  We are in the
       lower energy future that we've been saying is on the way.
       However, as we descend I still expect those in power to burn
       every BTU they can scrape up - so they stay in power as long as
       possible.  I can't do anything about that or who gets the coal.
       "Cutting your own energy footprint if you are in surplus is a
       good thing, and you can more or less go to the Great Beyond with
       a clear conscience that you tried to do...something. What you do
       though will never be enough..."
       As you know well, this isn't about me or you.  We're damn near
       done.  It's about what we leave behind for those who follow. I
       work much harder at all this than I should.  I'd rather go
       fishin' once in a while.   But, apparently I'm not done yet.  It
       sure isn't about upping my personal Good Guy score. I'm not
       telling anyone else how they should deal with collapse or the
       conundrum we find ourselves in.  You "do good" as you see it.
       That's not my call.  As to the fact that what I do will never be
       enough, sorry but that is no reason not to do it.  I quote RE:
       "Save as many as you can."
       [/b]
       So, you can "do good" for somebody if you have a surplus, but
       the good you do for them is bad for somebody else.   Abigail
       Adams credo is simplistic, and does not address the problem of
       how you can do good when there just is not enough around to do
       good for everyone.   Would Abigail Adams have killed herself to
       do good?
       Of course Abigail's quote is simplistic.  Yankee wisdom, solid,
       severe and sparse.  As to her character, well she risked it all,
       her own life and her family's for what she thought was a just
       cause bigger than her.  To try and be good and do good doesn't
       mean you can help everyone or keep the ship from sinking.
       RE there are many good folks who do what they can for others
       even though they don't have a surplus at all.  Those people
       humble me every day.
       As it happens, I know a few men who did risk their lives to save
       injured and desperate kids in Afghanistan. They did it all the
       time.
       
       Sorry I still can't figure out the quote doo-dad.
       #Post#: 1360--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: RE Date: October 22, 2021, 3:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The difference here is one of focus.  You are focused on
       individual actions; I am focused on social actions.  Individuals
       can be "good", just as they can be intelligent.  Civilizations
       are never good and they also operate at a low level of
       intelligence.  When you are swimming in a sea of shyt, you can't
       do good. The waves of shyt roll over everyone, you included.
       When I began the Diner, my motivation was to wake people up to
       what was transpiring around them.  I didn't have huge success
       with the project, my websites never went viral of course.   I
       did have a few successes, I know of at least 4 people who made
       significant life changes after reading the Diner.  Did this do
       any good though?  Definitely not on the social level, and not
       even on the individual level.  Frankly, these days I don't think
       Doomsteading offers much more chance of survival than living in
       a big shitty.  Maybe it buys you a few more years of survival,
       but it's no permenent solution.  I know of no Doomstead that is
       self sufficient nor any that could defend itself when either the
       Zombies or the Military shows up in force.  I also don't
       consider Farming to be a sustainable way of life anyhow.
       Historically speaking, all Ag Civilizations have collapsed.  The
       only sustainable form of living is H-G, but you can't do that
       nowadays.  Not enough game, not enough fish, not enough unowned
       land to wander around on to pick berries and dig up edible
       roots.
       So, what is good here?  You can make the case it is good to let
       nature take its course and letting the population dieoff.  You
       can make the case it is GOOD to keep burning FFs, because then
       people will dieoff faster!  lol.  That would be the case made by
       the Illuminati.  Get rid of those Useless Eaters!  You can also
       make the case it would be good to Guillotine all the folks at
       the top of the pyramid who got us into this mess.  Work your way
       down killing off rich people until you have left only poor and
       generous people. :)
       Far as soldiers who risked their lives to save Afghani children
       goes, they were working in service for the MIC, which in
       aggregate kills many more children than it saves.  I don't
       consider anyone who is a soldier in service to the MIC to be
       good.  They are the enablers of Evil, the enforcement arm of
       Capitalism.  In the words of General Smedley Butler:
  HTML https://change-links.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/smedley-quote.jpg
       RE
       #Post#: 1361--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: Digwe Must Date: October 22, 2021, 5:51 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=RE link=topic=73.msg1360#msg1360 date=1634935460]
       The difference here is one of focus.  You are focused on
       individual actions; I am focused on social actions.  Individuals
       can be "good", just as they can be intelligent.  Civilizations
       are never good and they also operate at a low level of
       intelligence.  When you are swimming in a sea of shyt, you can't
       do good. The waves of shyt roll over everyone, you included.
       When I began the Diner, my motivation was to wake people up to
       what was transpiring around them.  I didn't have huge success
       with the project, my websites never went viral of course.   I
       did have a few successes, I know of at least 4 people who made
       significant life changes after reading the Diner.  Did this do
       any good though?  Definitely not on the social level, and not
       even on the individual level.  Frankly, these days I don't think
       Doomsteading offers much more chance of survival than living in
       a big shitty.  Maybe it buys you a few more years of survival,
       but it's no permenent solution.  I know of no Doomstead that is
       self sufficient nor any that could defend itself when either the
       Zombies or the Military shows up in force.  I also don't
       consider Farming to be a sustainable way of life anyhow.
       Historically speaking, all Ag Civilizations have collapsed.  The
       only sustainable form of living is H-G, but you can't do that
       nowadays.  Not enough game, not enough fish, not enough unowned
       land to wander around on to pick berries and dig up edible
       roots.
       So, what is good here?  You can make the case it is good to let
       nature take its course and letting the population dieoff.  You
       can make the case it is GOOD to keep burning FFs, because then
       people will dieoff faster!  lol.  That would be the case made by
       the Illuminati.  Get rid of those Useless Eaters!  You can also
       make the case it would be good to Guillotine all the folks at
       the top of the pyramid who got us into this mess.  Work your way
       down killing off rich people until you have left only poor and
       generous people. :)
       Far as soldiers who risked their lives to save Afghani children
       goes, they were working in service for the MIC, which in
       aggregate kills many more children than it saves.  I don't
       consider anyone who is a soldier in service to the MIC to be
       good.  They are the enablers of Evil, the enforcement arm of
       Capitalism.  In the words of General Smedley Butler:
  HTML https://change-links.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/smedley-quote.jpg
       RE
       [/quote]
       Glad it's raining today and I can a few minutes to go back and
       forth.  Good discussion.
       I am focused on individual actions.  That's where I can do the
       most good.  I can opine on the Meryl Streep choice and offer my
       take on the societal choices to be made  but I will have no
       effect.  All the outrage and moral dilemma I feel will not alter
       the outcome.  For me, channeling that outrage and sadness into
       positive action on the ground works best.
       The members of the MIC you mention were about 19 years old when
       sent to Afghanistan, convinced they were fighting for their
       country, avenging 9/11 and keeping terrorists away from the US.
       Indeed, they were tools  of the MIC and killed many people.
       They were the occupiers and on the wrong side.  They did things
       that 10 years later they simply would not do.  In my opinion
       they were duped.  They pay for it every day.  My point being
       that when making individual decisions under extreme duress,
       caught in a colossal geo-political blunder, they chose,
       sometimes at great personal risk, to do good when they could -
       of course in the context of the situation they found themselves
       in.  Perhaps you were a mature 18 year old who transcended your
       upbringing and culture to have an enhanced ability for critical
       thinking.  Maybe you've never been sold a bill of goods or duped
       by propaganda.  Maybe you don't regret any major choices you
       made at that age.  We aren't all that fortunate.
       I'm very familiar with Smedley Butler.  Read books about him
       years ago.  He didn't start out enlightened on the subject of US
       imperialism.  It took him a few years - and he stayed with the
       program for a while. He was a general for chrissakes.
       I did what I could - again a very small contribution- to stop
       the Vietnam war.  I grew up with kids who went when drafted,
       kids that enlisted because of patriotism and kids that went to
       jail and Canada.  I never blamed them. I blamed Johnson and
       Nixon and the MIC.  Still do.  So many lives ruined and gone.
       I agree that traditional ag is unsustainable.  That's why we
       don't do it.  We have a Permaculture site.  This involves a much
       different design and use of land and soil, using biological
       solutions to meet challenges whenever possible.  We build soil,
       we don't deplete it.  We bury carbon. Permaculture is based on
       ethics: care for the earth - care for people - fair share the
       surplus - self regulation.  This is followed by 12 principles
       that I won't list because I don't sense any interest.  It is a
       much different approach to producing food (also shelter,
       community, enterprise) with much different results.  Holmgren
       and Mollison (two Aussies) came up with the concept which has
       been evolving for over 40 years. We've taught some young folks
       who are spending their lives now doing this work.  You may view
       this as insignificant - I see it as essential. I see it as my
       way of meeting my obligation to do good.
       I completely agree that one family or small group has a very
       poor chance of survival in a SHTF scenario.  As I've said
       before, you can't have all preps.  And no, you can't be
       completely self sufficient.  You can't have every skill and
       piece of equipment.  You can't keep your eyes open 24/7.
       Intentional communities generally don't work.   A network of
       neighbors with complimentary skills and resources is the best
       solution I've run across.  I think your statement about survival
       odds in a city versus a rural environment depends on the
       individual.  I wouldn't last a day in a city in bad times.
       There are many in the city who would starve out here while
       surrounded by food they don't recognize as food.  They can't
       tell north from south without their phone.  They can't read
       maps, and many, many are too fat to make it in a situation that
       requires physical work.
       I expect things to get very bad.  But I do not expect the US
       military to show up here.  We're tiny.  They will be spread very
       thin.  In a 2nd Civil War or general revolt local militias and
       paramilitary groups will be more of a factor.  Zombies will be a
       threat - but smaller and more isolated.  Community defense can
       deal with zombies.
       Living on freeze dried, stolen rations in a concrete urban hovel
       has no interest for me.  Tapping into natural systems,
       relearning patterns and methods for obtaining food, clothing and
       shelter is, to my mind, the only chance many young people today
       will have in the future.  Not just to survive, but to have lives
       with some potential for dignity and joy.
       I'm sorry you don't think the Diner was much of a contribution.
       I thought it was great when I could spend time there.  My only
       problem was the lack of specific strategies and methods people
       employed. An accurate view of the big picture is essential.
       Discussion of the issues and elements of the ongoing collapse is
       essential - at least for me - to be able an put my own views in
       perspective.  But what are we doing about it?
       There was a guy named Category 5 (as I recall) who posted
       articles about his place in Nova Scotia.  I thought his pieces
       were very interesting, although he seemed pissed off all the
       time. His approach to many issues were very different than mine.
       In particular he despised his neighbors and the locals.  But
       there were many methods he took for certain work that I found
       intriguing.  I sent you a message once asking if you thought I
       should submit a piece contrasting our approaches to certain
       tasks and concerns.  As it turned out, you were sick and on the
       IR list and I didn't hear back.  So, I sent the same message to
       either Eddie or K-Dog ( can't remember which) and never got a
       response.  I took that as a clear sign of lack of interest.
       We all do what we can, when we can, and do it as well as we can.
       If you think the concept of "doing good" is simplistic and a
       waste of time...well that's certainly an opinion shared by the
       majority, if we believe actions speak louder than words.  We can
       agonize over the suffering of children and the helpless around
       the world , but I don't think we can let the severity of the
       situation paralyze us into inaction and impotent outrage.
       Fodere Debemus
       #Post#: 1363--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: Phil Potts Date: October 22, 2021, 7:33 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=K-Dog link=topic=73.msg1341#msg1341
       date=1634777445]
       This looks like a good place for these:
  HTML https://youtu.be/jtTr8k6sh78
  HTML https://youtu.be/t74YeWd2SOsby
       I agree with the **** -up electronic meat monkey brain riding
       the back of a tiger comparison.
       COVID denialism which Rebecca talks about in the first video
       makes it crystal clear.  People are walking around with
       unlicensed brains.
       [/quote]
       By 'covid denialism' I thought you meant denying covid exists.
       That's not what she addressed though, it was 'vaccine hesitancy'
       (refusing unless forced). She cites only 3 reasons.
       Her first reason for refusing  was it is not FDA approved. She
       says this can not be a logical reason because Iver is not FDA
       approved for treatment of covid either. This neglects the
       reasons why both are not approved being entirely different.
       There is no money to be made from iver. Approving it would stop
       the money being made by pharmacos with vaccines. The pharmacos
       fund and run the FDA, saving the taxpayer money but clearly
       compromising it's integrity by interests.
       An entirely different standard is being applied to studies of
       iver as a treatment, it is not the low standard and skipping
       phases of trials with control group done with the Vax. The
       pharmacos themselves are not doing the studies on iver, they are
       ignoring what studies have been done and why it is then approved
       in those countries, while banned in our own.
       mRNA as a Vax has never been approved because it's effects are
       short lived and side effects over time with repeated doses are
       disastrous in animal trials.
       Second reason cited was side effects. She says 'study after
       study shows they are ridiculously safe'. This is an article of
       faith, death and other things are listed as side effects on the
       label and the study is being done on you now. Who has asked you
       about any side effects to gather the data? Look at what other
       countries did halting the Vax when unnaceptable numbers showed
       up with blood clots for a clue. Look at the resignations and
       warnings from the CDC regarding vaxing children. Look at those
       who produce or push it exempting themselves.
       Third reason is it is new technology. It is old as a gene
       therapy not as a successful vaccine and not for want of trying.
       It could not be used now as a Vax  if not for a pandemic being
       declared an emergency. Declaring an emergency removes a lot of
       human rights as well.
       She mentioned J&J as older technology available. It is viral
       vector, not deactivated virus. Many consider it the best of a
       bad bunch, but it is not available everywhere. Even in the US it
       has now been stopped because of blood clotting.
       She thinks 'it's most likely we got our information on fox news
       and Facebook', another baseless article of faith for those who
       get their own info only from the msm. What they do is a risk v
       reward calculus based on immediate side effects possible and
       unknown long term side effects. The nurses do this based on what
       they see themselves, The pilots and air crews refusing to get
       vaxed probably do that based on things they see themself
       including the grounding of all crews at fort hood. Many know or
       know of people who had side effects from vax as well as people
       who had covid. If not, there is no shortage of stories available
       online. They count dverse reactions between recieving first dose
       and two weeks after second dose who are not counted as
       vaccinated. They don't think there is no connection between the
       vaccine and the side effect because these things can happen to
       people with a pre-existing condition. They think if it happened
       to a healthy person with no history, it was the vaccine causing
       it.
       On being atheist, she really is not, as she is fully baptised in
       the State substitute provided, recognising man's general need
       for religion. When she gave reasons for being atheist, she said
       various religions were wrong to her, not that she gave any
       reasons for them being wrong, but that people followed them only
       because of being brought up with them. That is not always the
       case, many question the faith and come to their own
       understanding, also many join religions of their own volition
       from outside. More important is the  rookie atheist error in not
       distinguishing between a religion and a creator to explain
       phenomena.
       She could step up as the first person presenting the case for
       Vax mandates to accept the challenge to actually debate the
       topic, which has gone unanswered. She could start by giving a
       reason for just 3 things. 1 why it is important for anyone to
       take something which does not prevent infection or spreading the
       disease, but only reduces severe symptoms and messaging now is
       only 'it might'. 2. Why an alternative treatment that can do
       that as well and completely safe is blocked. 3. Why people who
       have had covid and recovered, having the best protection, are
       also forced. The reason for not already considering any of this
       is only religious fanaticism.
       That took way too much time just to repeat things I've said
       before. It would be easier protesting being told I'm walking
       around with an unlicensed brain by just not participating.
       #Post#: 1367--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: RE Date: October 22, 2021, 10:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Digwe Must link=topic=73.msg1361#msg1361
       date=1634943111]
       Glad it's raining today and I can a few minutes to go back and
       forth.  Good discussion.
       I am focused on individual actions.  That's where I can do the
       most good.  I can opine on the Meryl Streep choice and offer my
       take on the societal choices to be made  but I will have no
       effect.  All the outrage and moral dilemma I feel will not alter
       the outcome.  For me, channeling that outrage and sadness into
       positive action on the ground works best.
       The members of the MIC you mention were about 19 years old when
       sent to Afghanistan, convinced they were fighting for their
       country, avenging 9/11 and keeping terrorists away from the US.
       Indeed, they were tools  of the MIC and killed many people.
       They were the occupiers and on the wrong side.  They did things
       that 10 years later they simply would not do.  In my opinion
       they were duped.  They pay for it every day.  My point being
       that when making individual decisions under extreme duress,
       caught in a colossal geo-political blunder, they chose,
       sometimes at great personal risk, to do good when they could -
       of course in the context of the situation they found themselves
       in.  Perhaps you were a mature 18 year old who transcended your
       upbringing and culture to have an enhanced ability for critical
       thinking.  Maybe you've never been sold a bill of goods or duped
       by propaganda.  Maybe you don't regret any major choices you
       made at that age.  We aren't all that fortunate.
       I'm very familiar with Smedley Butler.  Read books about him
       years ago.  He didn't start out enlightened on the subject of US
       imperialism.  It took him a few years - and he stayed with the
       program for a while. He was a general for chrissakes.
       I did what I could - again a very small contribution- to stop
       the Vietnam war.  I grew up with kids who went when drafted,
       kids that enlisted because of patriotism and kids that went to
       jail and Canada.  I never blamed them. I blamed Johnson and
       Nixon and the MIC.  Still do.  So many lives ruined and gone.
       I agree that traditional ag is unsustainable.  That's why we
       don't do it.  We have a Permaculture site.  This involves a much
       different design and use of land and soil, using biological
       solutions to meet challenges whenever possible.  We build soil,
       we don't deplete it.  We bury carbon. Permaculture is based on
       ethics: care for the earth - care for people - fair share the
       surplus - self regulation.  This is followed by 12 principles
       that I won't list because I don't sense any interest.  It is a
       much different approach to producing food (also shelter,
       community, enterprise) with much different results.  Holmgren
       and Mollison (two Aussies) came up with the concept which has
       been evolving for over 40 years. We've taught some young folks
       who are spending their lives now doing this work.  You may view
       this as insignificant - I see it as essential. I see it as my
       way of meeting my obligation to do good.
       I completely agree that one family or small group has a very
       poor chance of survival in a SHTF scenario.  As I've said
       before, you can't have all preps.  And no, you can't be
       completely self sufficient.  You can't have every skill and
       piece of equipment.  You can't keep your eyes open 24/7.
       Intentional communities generally don't work.   A network of
       neighbors with complimentary skills and resources is the best
       solution I've run across.  I think your statement about survival
       odds in a city versus a rural environment depends on the
       individual.  I wouldn't last a day in a city in bad times.
       There are many in the city who would starve out here while
       surrounded by food they don't recognize as food.  They can't
       tell north from south without their phone.  They can't read
       maps, and many, many are too fat to make it in a situation that
       requires physical work.
       I expect things to get very bad.  But I do not expect the US
       military to show up here.  We're tiny.  They will be spread very
       thin.  In a 2nd Civil War or general revolt local militias and
       paramilitary groups will be more of a factor.  Zombies will be a
       threat - but smaller and more isolated.  Community defense can
       deal with zombies.
       Living on freeze dried, stolen rations in a concrete urban hovel
       has no interest for me.  Tapping into natural systems,
       relearning patterns and methods for obtaining food, clothing and
       shelter is, to my mind, the only chance many young people today
       will have in the future.  Not just to survive, but to have lives
       with some potential for dignity and joy.
       I'm sorry you don't think the Diner was much of a contribution.
       I thought it was great when I could spend time there.  My only
       problem was the lack of specific strategies and methods people
       employed. An accurate view of the big picture is essential.
       Discussion of the issues and elements of the ongoing collapse is
       essential - at least for me - to be able an put my own views in
       perspective.  But what are we doing about it?
       There was a guy named Category 5 (as I recall) who posted
       articles about his place in Nova Scotia.  I thought his pieces
       were very interesting, although he seemed pissed off all the
       time. His approach to many issues were very different than mine.
       In particular he despised his neighbors and the locals.  But
       there were many methods he took for certain work that I found
       intriguing.  I sent you a message once asking if you thought I
       should submit a piece contrasting our approaches to certain
       tasks and concerns.  As it turned out, you were sick and on the
       IR list and I didn't hear back.  So, I sent the same message to
       either Eddie or K-Dog ( can't remember which) and never got a
       response.  I took that as a clear sign of lack of interest.
       We all do what we can, when we can, and do it as well as we can.
       If you think the concept of "doing good" is simplistic and a
       waste of time...well that's certainly an opinion shared by the
       majority, if we believe actions speak louder than words.  We can
       agonize over the suffering of children and the helpless around
       the world , but I don't think we can let the severity of the
       situation paralyze us into inaction and impotent outrage.
       Fodere Debemus
       [/quote]
       We had a whole Forum on the Diner, the Doomsteading forum
       dedicated to topics like permaculture.  I chartered a 501c3
       nonprofit corporation, the Sustaining Universal Needs (SUN)
       Foundation to help educate and build sustainable living
       communities.  We had many members over the years who were
       permaculture enthusiasts.  Some even had their official
       Permaculture Certificates.  Eddie has one of those.  I published
       numerous blogs by others concerned with this topic, Toby
       Hemenway for one.    I talked several times with Irv Mills on
       Video.  We did a show on food preservation, including
       cheesemaking, pickling and canning.  Don't know why you never
       got response to your PMs, but you could have posted on the forum
       anytime.   I often took detailed posts and threads from the
       forum and turned them into blogs.  I was always looking for new
       authors and contributors.
       My own area of expertiese is not in this field, it's in
       mathematics and economics, along with biochemistry and
       psychology.  I don't write about permaculture because I'm not
       familiar enough with it.
       As to the potential for permaculture to save the population, I
       don't know how many people it can feed on the earth, but I don't
       think it is 7.8B.  Many of the techniques come from antiquity,
       but it was consistently out competed by more intensive methods
       that grew the population faster.  You need a big population to
       have a big army, of course.
       When it comes to being duped into the military at 19, no I was
       not.  I knew it was trash by the age of 15 for sure with
       Vietnam, possibly earlier than that.  I did almost get duped
       though, because I applied to the Air Force Academy out of HS.  I
       wasn't accepted because I was too young graduating HS, I was 16.
       You had to be at least 17.  They invited me to reapply the next
       year (I got a call from a General at the Pentagon personally
       inviting me to do that).  I didn't want to join the Air Force to
       bomb people though, I did it because I wanted to be an
       Astronaut.  At the time, the only way to get that job was to
       have experience as a military pilot.  They didn't send 90 year
       old actors into space in those years.  lol.
       Do I forgive 19 year olds for being stupid and voluntarily
       signing up to kill people?  No I do not, stupidity is no excuse
       for making a piss poor moral choice.  I do not Forgive and I do
       not Forget.  People need to be accountable for their mistakes. I
       am accountable for all mine, fortunately they don't include
       killing anybody else.
       It would be nice if everyone was good and kind and generous, but
       sadly most people are not.  Most people are stupid, greedy and
       selfish.  The WORST people are smart, greedy and selfish.  So it
       goes.
       RE
       #Post#: 1368--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Cultural Errat
       By: Digwe Must Date: October 22, 2021, 11:34 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       That took way too much time just to repeat things I've said
       before. It would be easier protesting being told I'm walking
       around with an unlicensed brain by just not participating.
       I'm not sure that "unlicensed brain" and "duckwit" are
       compatible, but they make a nice couple on the dancefloor.
       I hope you continue to participate, PP.  The discussion really
       benefits from your presence.  I think the ad hominem attacks are
       based on fear.
       Abigail's old man had it right. "I will enlarge no more on the
       evidence, but submit it to you, gentlemen—Facts are stubborn
       things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the
       dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts
       and evidence..."  John Adams, 1770.
  HTML https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0020138
       Medical Journals Are an Extension of the Marketing Arm of
       Pharmaceutical Companies
       *****************************************************
   DIR Next Page