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#Post#: 1208--------------------------------------------------
Smash the Hopium.
By: K-Dog Date: October 11, 2021, 5:17 am
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But first you have to find it.
HTML https://youtu.be/Qc6gVht9CFQ
A reaction video.
HTML https://youtu.be/fT1im5Si_ns
#Post#: 1209--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smash the Hopium.
By: RE Date: October 11, 2021, 9:47 am
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The problem with this sort of "revolutionary" political change
doesn't solve the main problems of population overshoot and
available energy depletion. No matter who is running the show
or how they run it, you still crash into the same wall.
Imagine hypoyhetically you could engineer perfectly even global
socialism. Everybody makes the same yearly income. The average
Global per capita GDP is $12,609, well below the poverty line
here in the FSoA. The only way to live on that is to not pay
rent and live in a tent, which is how they do it in Bhutan and
other places at or below the mdian income. Also the Homeless
population here. Nobody with income above the median will
voluntarily reduce it to $12,609.
Now, if you cut the population everywhere in half, assuming you
could maintain the GDP, everyone would have $25,218. This you
can live on, I do. Unlikely you could maintain that
productivity though of course. Also, to maintain that level of
productivity, you would have to burn as much FFs as you did with
double the population. So no progress there on carbon
emissions.
What socialism does do however is more equitably distribute the
pain. There is less provocation to war if everyone is equally
poor.
An interesting hypothetical would be what global per capita GDP
would be without burning FFs at all? What was the GDP of Rome
at the height of their Empire? What was the GDP of
pre-Columbian Turtle Island? From that, you might be able to
work out what total supportable population is, at least with
similar climatic conditions and resource availability. Since
those parameters have been degraded over the centuries, it's
probably less than it was then of course. An interesting
thought experiment, nonetheless.
RE
#Post#: 1215--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smash the Hopium.
By: Digwe Must Date: October 11, 2021, 3:41 pm
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[quote author=RE link=topic=72.msg1209#msg1209 date=1633963631]
The problem with this sort of "revolutionary" political change
doesn't solve the main problems of population overshoot and
available energy depletion. No matter who is running the show
or how they run it, you still crash into the same wall.
Imagine hypoyhetically you could engineer perfectly even global
socialism. Everybody makes the same yearly income. The average
Global per capita GDP is $12,609, well below the poverty line
here in the FSoA. The only way to live on that is to not pay
rent and live in a tent, which is how they do it in Bhutan and
other places at or below the mdian income. Also the Homeless
population here. Nobody with income above the median will
voluntarily reduce it to $12,609.
Now, if you cut the population everywhere in half, assuming you
could maintain the GDP, everyone would have $25,218. This you
can live on, I do. Unlikely you could maintain that
productivity though of course. Also, to maintain that level of
productivity, you would have to burn as much FFs as you did with
double the population. So no progress there on carbon
emissions.
What socialism does do however is more equitably distribute the
pain. There is less provocation to war if everyone is equally
poor.
An interesting hypothetical would be what global per capita GDP
would be without burning FFs at all? What was the GDP of Rome
at the height of their Empire? What was the GDP of
pre-Columbian Turtle Island? From that, you might be able to
work out what total supportable population is, at least with
similar climatic conditions and resource availability. Since
those parameters have been degraded over the centuries, it's
probably less than it was then of course. An interesting
thought experiment, nonetheless.
RE
[/quote]
Well said. Good thread here.
Isn't it Gail Tverberg, and probably many others also, who can
tie human progress - and wealth - historically to energy use per
capita? With rapidly depleting resources and energy in the easy
and cheap to obtain category, the current economic and hence
governmental operating systems are going to collapse, optimism
or not. As has been pointed out here many times renewables will
not fill the gap. A much less energy intensive system could
have been adopted -over time - in which renewables were serious
players. TPTB would never stand for that. So it will be
collapse.
The growth in human population and energy use simply can't be
maintained. The sophisticated level of international
exploitation (trade) is simply too complex and expensive. The
days when oak sawlogs can be shipped from North Carolina to
China, turned into toilet seats and then shipped back to the US
profitably are over.
One can still take action that will have positive long term
benefits for humans and nature. However, it will take place in
the context of general collapse. I would argue that should be
more exciting to the young than trying to change the driver on a
bus headed over the cliff. The current level of complexity and
intense energy use will not be sustained because it can't be.
There are still paths for the young to take, salvaging the
useable scrap from the ashes. (I hope I'm being figurative here
- but probably not) Regeneration. Renewal. However, I
understand action in the streets. I was there in my very young
days. These kids want to take capitalism off at the kneecaps.
I get it. The important thing is not to be under the ass hole
when it tips over.
I know and know of hundreds of young people engaged in
Permaculture. There are thousands more. Creating and
implementing designs that will thrive in a post-capitalist
environment. Having, in my opinion, mutualism at it's core,
Permaculture will prove far more resilient than centralized
economic policy of any stripe or degree of force. The vision
that many have of a gigantic octopus central state unleashed
from any restraints with surveillance drones, security
checkpoints and big brother cameras everywhere (usually with
noir lighting) requires enormous energy, complex supply chains
and a willing compliant populace. I just don't buy it for the
US, at least not for long after the Cheetos run out. They can't
even collect taxes without voluntary participation. I
understand that technology is a force multiplier for oppression
but looking at previous police states that were relatively
sophisticated like East Germany, they had an enormous security
apparatus in relation to their population size and GDP.
I'm sure that there are folks who get depressed over doom. It-
for them - is a reason for depression, inaction and unhealthy
behavior. Many of these folks are fragile and would have needed
help because of some other trigger. They have my legitimate
sympathy. I wish I could help them all. I know people though,
many as it turns out, for whom doom is a great motivator. They
see that the current pollution intensive techno façade is not
the actual ground on which they stand. There is a crisis to
survive and a new world to be made. It will be more in tune
with nature, more resilient and sustainable - or it won't
survive either.
And then there are the many who are too afraid to acknowledge
the obvious truth. God bless them.
#Post#: 1219--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smash the Hopium.
By: Digwe Must Date: October 11, 2021, 5:04 pm
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HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWA_-WhzljM
Stick a fork in their ass and turn em over. They're done.
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