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#Post#: 2207--------------------------------------------------
Re: Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
By: RE Date: December 28, 2021, 10:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=66.msg2206#msg2206
date=1640701334]
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2205#msg2205 date=1640698369]
How much energy does it take to pump the water up to the top of
the Farmscraper to dribble down to the crops below? Where is
the fertilizer coming from? How much energy to run all the
robots to harvest the food?
Techno-futurist solutions really annoy me.
HTML https://equity.gur
u/2021/12/24/farmscrapers-the-future-of-agriculture-holiday-wrap
-up-wwt-v-bee-v-krn-to/
Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
RE
[/quote]Towers devoted to plants seems like a crazy use of
expensive real estate. There are big metal wharehouses going up
now to grow greens under LEDs in industrial areas where land is
cheaper. Those I think have a future especially in colder
regions that import all their winter greens like here. We have a
2x4x6 ft shelving unit devoted to led grown greens ourselves.
It's very easy maintenance and cheaper then buying. That I could
see becoming mainstream what with California water shortages,
concerns over labour practices and the almost regular ecoli
outbreaks. Picture of our rack attached.
[/quote]
I'm all for indoor hydroponics setups, especially in cold
climates.. Peter who started the Diner with me devoted his
whole house to it, with several rooms full of crops. This along
with a comunity greenhouse supplied most of his food. He lived
in Ocean Falls BC, population 26. At one time it had 6000
people, but the Paper plant was closed and everyone left, except
a small crew to maintain the Hydro plant, which also serves
Bella Bella, a native fishing village.
The warehouse plan also is pretty feasible, with diode lights
powered by a solar array or wind. At least as long as you can
get diode lights anyhow.
Real Estate isn't the problem, you wouldn't put one up in a city
surrounded by other towers. All the other buildings around it
have to be low so the whole tower gets sunlight coming through
the windows. Since it supposedly will feed 40,000, you would
build one in the middle of a suburban bedroom community to
locally feed that population.
The expense is in the construction cost and materials, then the
energy cost to run the building and pump up the water. Glass as
mentioned a while back is in short supply and getting more
expensive. Just to feed 40,000 people, this is an enormous
infrastructure expense. It can't ever possibly pay for itself.
It's another monument to irredeemable debt.
RE
#Post#: 2210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
By: Nearings fault Date: December 28, 2021, 1:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2207#msg2207 date=1640710169]
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=66.msg2206#msg2206
date=1640701334]
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2205#msg2205 date=1640698369]
How much energy does it take to pump the water up to the top of
the Farmscraper to dribble down to the crops below? Where is
the fertilizer coming from? How much energy to run all the
robots to harvest the food?
Techno-futurist solutions really annoy me.
HTML https://equity.gur
u/2021/12/24/farmscrapers-the-future-of-agriculture-holiday-wrap
-up-wwt-v-bee-v-krn-to/
Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
RE
[/quote]Towers devoted to plants seems like a crazy use of
expensive real estate. There are big metal wharehouses going up
now to grow greens under LEDs in industrial areas where land is
cheaper. Those I think have a future especially in colder
regions that import all their winter greens like here. We have a
2x4x6 ft shelving unit devoted to led grown greens ourselves.
It's very easy maintenance and cheaper then buying. That I could
see becoming mainstream what with California water shortages,
concerns over labour practices and the almost regular ecoli
outbreaks. Picture of our rack attached.
[/quote]
I'm all for indoor hydroponics setups, especially in cold
climates.. Peter who started the Diner with me devoted his
whole house to it, with several rooms full of crops. This along
with a comunity greenhouse supplied most of his food. He lived
in Ocean Falls BC, population 26. At one time it had 6000
people, but the Paper plant was closed and everyone left, except
a small crew to maintain the Hydro plant, which also serves
Bella Bella, a native fishing village.
The warehouse plan also is pretty feasible, with diode lights
powered by a solar array or wind. At least as long as you can
get diode lights anyhow.
Real Estate isn't the problem, you wouldn't put one up in a city
surrounded by other towers. All the other buildings around it
have to be low so the whole tower gets sunlight coming through
the windows. Since it supposedly will feed 40,000, you would
build one in the middle of a suburban bedroom community to
locally feed that population.
The expense is in the construction cost and materials, then the
energy cost to run the building and pump up the water. Glass as
mentioned a while back is in short supply and getting more
expensive. Just to feed 40,000 people, this is an enormous
infrastructure expense. It can't ever possibly pay for itself.
It's another monument to irredeemable debt.
RE
[/quote]that is another murky subject. Usually when then say
"feeding" 40000 what they really mean is providing them with
greens and veggies rarely with base calories.
#Post#: 2213--------------------------------------------------
Re: Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
By: Phil Potts Date: December 28, 2021, 4:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2205#msg2205 date=1640698369]
How much energy does it take to pump the water up to the top of
the Farmscraper to dribble down to the crops below? Where is
the fertilizer coming from? How much energy to run all the
robots to harvest the food?
Techno-futurist solutions really annoy me.
HTML https://equity.gur
u/2021/12/24/farmscrapers-the-future-of-agriculture-holiday-wrap
-up-wwt-v-bee-v-krn-to/
Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
RE
[/quote]
This would be a gigantic reduction in energy use and without the
need for pesticide poison. Calculate the reduction in water use
without evaporation. Calculate the energy to pump a lot more
water to farms vs this being just one more tall building in the
city. Even a human bucket chain in the stairwell could water it
in short time. Calculate the ease and speed of transporting the
produce to residents vs shipping into Shenzhen from outside. You
need to see that place to believe just how huge and dense it is.
It's also in the south where it's warm, so think the energy of
refrigerated storage and transport for God only knows how many
hours to get fruit and vegetables in from outside.
Hydroponics near the north pole doesn't seem like a more
efficient solution than what they've done in China. There is
energy to pump water to the house across the distance from the
water source to the town. There is energy to keep the lights on,
there is energy to warm the space if those lights are LED. There
is energy and cost in getting the grow chemicals. It's still a
lot less energy than getting fresh things from the tropics
though.
#Post#: 2218--------------------------------------------------
Re: Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
By: Nearings fault Date: December 28, 2021, 8:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Phil Potts link=topic=66.msg2213#msg2213
date=1640730380]
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2205#msg2205 date=1640698369]
How much energy does it take to pump the water up to the top of
the Farmscraper to dribble down to the crops below? Where is
the fertilizer coming from? How much energy to run all the
robots to harvest the food?
Techno-futurist solutions really annoy me.
HTML https://equity.gur
u/2021/12/24/farmscrapers-the-future-of-agriculture-holiday-wrap
-up-wwt-v-bee-v-krn-to/
Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
RE
[/quote]
This would be a gigantic reduction in energy use and without the
need for pesticide poison. Calculate the reduction in water use
without evaporation. Calculate the energy to pump a lot more
water to farms vs this being just one more tall building in the
city. Even a human bucket chain in the stairwell could water it
in short time. Calculate the ease and speed of transporting the
produce to residents vs shipping into Shenzhen from outside. You
need to see that place to believe just how huge and dense it is.
It's also in the south where it's warm, so think the energy of
refrigerated storage and transport for God only knows how many
hours to get fruit and vegetables in from outside.
Hydroponics near the north pole doesn't seem like a more
efficient solution than what they've done in China. There is
energy to pump water to the house across the distance from the
water source to the town. There is energy to keep the lights on,
there is energy to warm the space if those lights are LED. There
is energy and cost in getting the grow chemicals. It's still a
lot less energy than getting fresh things from the tropics
though.
[/quote]
China already leads the world in passive solar greenhouses used
for winter produce. The problem I see with the farmscrapper idea
is it's way too expensive to build. It's built to have a people
standard of space and light and it grows food as a pleasant side
effect. Large steel buildings with endless rows of racks and
LEDs are built to grow food... And people can work in them. The
math does not work out either: the article claim 40000 people
and "up to" 270000kg of food... So using their own numbers that
is 6.75kg of food per person... the food is an add on. A nice
add on but nothing more. You are going to see a lot more of this
kind of stuff in the future for sure.
#Post#: 2222--------------------------------------------------
Re: Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
By: K-Dog Date: December 29, 2021, 2:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[spoiler][quote author=Nearings fault
link=topic=66.msg2218#msg2218 date=1640745200]
[quote author=Phil Potts link=topic=66.msg2213#msg2213
date=1640730380]
[quote author=RE link=topic=66.msg2205#msg2205 date=1640698369]
How much energy does it take to pump the water up to the top of
the Farmscraper to dribble down to the crops below? Where is
the fertilizer coming from? How much energy to run all the
robots to harvest the food?
Techno-futurist solutions really annoy me.
HTML https://equity.gur
u/2021/12/24/farmscrapers-the-future-of-agriculture-holiday-wrap
-up-wwt-v-bee-v-krn-to/
Farmscrapers the Future of Agriculture?
RE
[/quote]
This would be a gigantic reduction in energy use and without the
need for pesticide poison. Calculate the reduction in water use
without evaporation. Calculate the energy to pump a lot more
water to farms vs this being just one more tall building in the
city. Even a human bucket chain in the stairwell could water it
in short time. Calculate the ease and speed of transporting the
produce to residents vs shipping into Shenzhen from outside. You
need to see that place to believe just how huge and dense it is.
It's also in the south where it's warm, so think the energy of
refrigerated storage and transport for God only knows how many
hours to get fruit and vegetables in from outside.
Hydroponics near the north pole doesn't seem like a more
efficient solution than what they've done in China. There is
energy to pump water to the house across the distance from the
water source to the town. There is energy to keep the lights on,
there is energy to warm the space if those lights are LED. There
is energy and cost in getting the grow chemicals. It's still a
lot less energy than getting fresh things from the tropics
though.
[/quote]
China already leads the world in passive solar greenhouses used
for winter produce. The problem I see with the farmscrapper idea
is it's way too expensive to build. It's built to have a people
standard of space and light and it grows food as a pleasant side
effect. Large steel buildings with endless rows of racks and
LEDs are built to grow food... And people can work in them. The
math does not work out either: the article claim 40000 people
and "up to" 270000kg of food... So using their own numbers that
is 6.75kg of food per person... the food is an add on. A nice
add on but nothing more. You are going to see a lot more of this
kind of stuff in the future for sure.
[/quote][/spoiler]
Oh GOD when will this shit go away. I'm going to do the most
simple way I can. Hoping and average idiot can tune in.
A circle 20 kilometers in diameter will have an area of 314
square kilometers.
The average daily solar insolation is a function of latitude. I
assume 0.6 kW/m2
Working out the math gives 108,000 MW of solar energy falling on
the 10 km circle.
Here is the relevant point.
The topography of the 10 km circle does not matter. Flat land
or skyscraper the amount of solar energy is the same.
[img]
HTML https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnews-cdn.softpedia.com%2Fimages%2Fnews2%2FArchitects-at-Play-See-How-London-s-Vertical-Farms-Could-Look-Like-7.jpg&f=1&nofb=1[/img]
People forget these kind of farms have shadows and no crops can
be grown in the shadows. In the end it is all the same.
108,000 MW will grow only so much. No matter the topography
used.
* a 43 square kilometer solar farm in China puts out 1,547 MW
#Post#: 2271--------------------------------------------------
Xi'an: Cries for help and food in quarantined Chinese city
By: RE Date: December 31, 2021, 4:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Please just wait for Mealz on Wheelz to arrive.
HTML https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59824916
Xi'an: Cries for help and food in quarantined Chinese city
RE
#Post#: 2299--------------------------------------------------
Passive solar greenhouse
By: Nearings fault Date: January 4, 2022, 9:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
When I see articles about urban tower farms they never make
sense to me. I see this as the future of out of season growing.
I would add growlights myself but it makes economic sense right
now, is already well deployed in China and you will see a lot
more of it going forward.
[<iframe width="340" height="315"
src="
HTML https://www.youtube.com/embed/EHbaW1Ea_O4"
title="YouTube
video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay;
clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture"
allowfullscreen></iframe>]
#Post#: 2301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Food Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: January 4, 2022, 4:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Which button allows me to embed the video?
Thanks...
#Post#: 2302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Passive solar greenhouse
By: Phil Potts Date: January 4, 2022, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=66.msg2299#msg2299
date=1641311269]
When I see articles about urban tower farms they never make
sense to me. I see this as the future of out of season growing.
I would add growlights myself but it makes economic sense right
now, is already well deployed in China and you will see a lot
more of it going forward.
[<iframe width="340" height="315"
src="
HTML https://www.youtube.com/embed/EHbaW1Ea_O4"
title="YouTube
video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay;
clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture"
allowfullscreen></iframe>]
[/quote]
Impressive. I'm curious where he got the 100x4x1 of clay. Maybe
on his own land and created a lake.
Urban tower farms would make sense with two main conditions. One
is a big city, so transporting in from outside is a problem
worth overcoming with the building. The other is right climate
with a lot of sun so either before mid day or after mid day is
enough.
#Post#: 2304--------------------------------------------------
Re: Passive solar greenhouse
By: Nearings fault Date: January 4, 2022, 5:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Phil Potts link=topic=66.msg2302#msg2302
date=1641336977]
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=66.msg2299#msg2299
date=1641311269]
When I see articles about urban tower farms they never make
sense to me. I see this as the future of out of season growing.
I would add growlights myself but it makes economic sense right
now, is already well deployed in China and you will see a lot
more of it going forward.
[<iframe width="340" height="315"
src="
HTML https://www.youtube.com/embed/EHbaW1Ea_O4"
title="YouTube
video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay;
clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture"
allowfullscreen></iframe>]
[/quote]
Impressive. I'm curious where he got the 100x4x1 of clay. Maybe
on his own land and created a lake.
Urban tower farms would make sense with two main conditions. One
is a big city, so transporting in from outside is a problem
worth overcoming with the building. The other is right climate
with a lot of sun so either before mid day or after mid day is
enough.
[/quote]I agree with K dog on this one. There is only so much
light hitting the ground at a given spot. Go up and you split it
into smaller amounts per floor. You would have to do lights if
you go vertical. The question then becomes: is the energy spent
on lighting compensated by the saving of transport energy...
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