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       #Post#: 1991--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Nearings fault Date: December 7, 2021, 8:36 pm
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       [quote author=RE link=topic=49.msg1990#msg1990 date=1638928542]
       [quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=49.msg1987#msg1987
       date=1638910421]
       It's actually pretty interesting. Most high voltage lines are
       aluminum where the increased resistance is much less of a factor
       at say 100000 volts or so. Even the 200 and 400 amp underground
       service lines are turning to aluminum due to copper prices. Raw
       aluminum manufacture is extremely energy intensive but once it's
       made reforming it and re-extruding it is not as bad as steel.
       There is talk of running a smelter only during off peak hours in
       the future or when the wind forecast is good. The whole grid
       needs to be rethought if we get serious about greening it.
       [/quote]
       Can you calculate a projected cost for the aluminum for the
       project at today's prices?  That would be interesting.
       RE
       [/quote] I admit that is far outside my skill set. But who is to
       say that a new grid is the solution ? Here is a good article
       showing how we have no idea how it all shakes out:
  HTML https://www.offshorewind.biz/2021/12/07/siemens-gamesa-looks-into-replacing-offshore-power-cables-with-pipes/
       So no grid just a stream of hydrogen supplying power plants
       possible via existing pipeline infrastructure... Solves the
       intermittent nature of wind and the overproduction problem in
       times of plenty.
       At this stage who the jesusfuck knows.
       #Post#: 1993--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: RE Date: December 7, 2021, 9:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I bet K-Dog could work it out. :)  If I had a bit more energy
       and motivation to do so, I think I could do it.
       What do we need to know?
       We can simplify the problem a bit.
       Just picture ONE offshore windfarm.  It really doesnt matter if
       it is just one or many spread all over the place.
       How many of the BIGGEST f*cking wind turbines we can make does
       it take to produce 30 GW of power?  How much does each one
       currently cost?
       How far apart do you space them out at sea?  From the photo it
       looks like maybe 500 meters.
       Now you need to connect them all together with aluminum cable.
       How thick does that wire need to be to carry the load from each
       turbine?
       Then you need to know how thick your cable needs to be to carry
       30 GW of Juice.  It would not be much different than 30
       individual arrays each carrying 1 GW.  Then the mileage to the
       substations (20 estimated) and how much it would cost to build
       such substations.  But that is past the scope of this exercise.
       All we are looking at is the aluminum cost for the project.  Not
       the labor costs or anything else.
       It's a doable problem, just would take some researching on the
       load capacity of aluminum wire, which I have no clue on.  After
       that, it's just multiplication.
       RE
       #Post#: 1994--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Phil Potts Date: December 8, 2021, 12:47 am
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       I'm no electrician or electrical engineer, but know a little
       about AC and DC cabling difference, which is a lot.
       I do not see any transformers/inverters from the wind turbines
       when I passed them in a ship hundreds of miles from where any
       power is needed. Are there transformers/inverters inside the
       masts, or underwater? I do not know, but it would make a giant
       difference to the cabling requirements. I think it would be very
       difficult from an engineering standpoint to overcome salt water
       corrosion in venting and cooling the transformer/inverter. It
       may be that they are in the mast below water and the water
       around them cools the fins, so no ventilation is necessary. I
       assume that is the case, as DC current over hundreds of miles is
       not possible due to the heavy copper cable requirement. Perhaps
       someone can research that, I don't have time. Assuming the
       current is AC, aluminium would need to be very well insulated.
       They can't be naked as in overhead transmission lines.
       You then have cost of not only aluminium, but rubber and I
       assume, piping which would need to be corrosion resistant,
       probably PVC. I don't know if naked aluminium inside PVC is
       possible. I doubt that would be what is used though.
       I don't see cost as mattering at all, the messaging is that
       endless trillion$ will be spent as in a war. That is not my
       analogy, it is literally what the spokespeople for the elite
       movers and shakers such as Prince Charles plainly enunciate. The
       great reset, aka 6uild 6ack 6etter ( fun fact, every healthcare
       provider in Oz, including yours truly,  now has a login number
       beginning with 666), is a technofuedal reversion to a two class
       system instead of the age of oil's three. Herr Shwab, son of a
       Nazi collaborator and student of Kissinger, says you will own
       nothing and be happy. Unlimited printing and inflation doesn't
       matter to the billionaires, as they are the recipients of the
       largesse, while middle classes must fold. All your 🍌 is
       yes ok Blackrock and Vanguard. Standard of living doesn't need
       to drop for those at the top.
       It's interesting what NF mentioned about plans to run smelters
       during off peak and when the wind blows. I've always thought
       that it only makes sense from a sustainable standpoint, to stop
       having industries that produce goods perpetually and only as
       needed. This means govt car fleets are not replaced after 20'000
       miles and you or I don't replace things when they are out of
       date, but when they are worn out. Your Vax status and social
       credit score will determine whether you deserve a new mattress
       or couch. Failure to adequately endorse big brother, or post
       pictures of puppies instead of independent thinking will switch
       you off and sink into the springs.
       The growth based paradigm is over.
       #Post#: 1997--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Nearings fault Date: December 8, 2021, 7:39 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I am not saying this is a great project the article is just a
       puff piece. If you wanted to know what I thought the future grid
       looked like this would be it. Production tied to an industry
       with a surplus to the grid. It's almost a return to the past
       when mills harnessed water for industry and as a sideline
       generated electricity.
  HTML https://www.offshorewind.biz/2021/12/07/1-gw-offshore-wind-project-in-australia-planned-to-power-aluminium-smelter/
       #Post#: 1999--------------------------------------------------
       Europe's Electricity Prices Hit Record High, Setting Energy Cris
       is to Last
       By: RE Date: December 8, 2021, 8:37 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Setting new records every day!
  HTML https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-08/energy-crunch-sends-benchmark-european-power-prices-to-record
       Europe's Electricity Prices Hit Record High, Setting Energy
       Crisis to Last
       RE
       #Post#: 2031--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Nearings fault Date: December 11, 2021, 11:04 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Cam link=topic=49.msg1959#msg1959 date=1638718752]
  HTML https://interestingengineering.com/new-co2-battery-can-halve-the-cost-of-solar-energy-storage
       Here is an interesting way to store solar energy. You need a lot
       of CO2, but this looks pretty neat to me.
       [/quote]
       Hi Cam, PV magazine posted a more detailed article about the CO2
       energy storage proposal. I found it went into the tech details
       more.  The take away I got was it's supposed to be a space saver
       over standard compressed air storage because of the reduced
       space requirements of compressed CO2... It's all interesting
  HTML https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/12/10/storing-solar-power-with-compressed-carbon-dioxide/
       #Post#: 2086--------------------------------------------------
       Russia Puts The Blame On Europe As Energy Crisis Worsens
       By: RE Date: December 16, 2021, 4:11 am
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  HTML https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russia-Puts-The-Blame-On-Europe-As-Energy-Crisis-Worsens.html
       Russia Puts The Blame On Europe As Energy Crisis Worsens
       #Post#: 2092--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: K-Dog Date: December 16, 2021, 10:37 am
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       [img]
  HTML https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/XkJncitYy32ZhUtwuHWYzw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD02NDY-/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/KjCkZAZkFV0.pD6wQ7Sjyg--~B/aD05MzQ7dz0xMjk2O2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/bloomberg_technology_68/15604ccd4c2388e8f4a4acbc84b1fbeb[/img]
       An interesting graphic.  I found the graph in a picture search.
       If you want to contribute to corporate energy use by all means
       delude yourself into thinking you can make a difference.
       [img]
  HTML https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.zDiN9Hb3jeX18x6JXgfI9QHaEL%26pid%3DApi&f=1[/img][img<br
       />width=200]
  HTML https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.istockphoto.com%2Fillustrations%2Fturn-off-the-lights-sticker-illustration-id1053470288%3Fk%3D6%26m%3D1053470288%26s%3D612x612%26w%3D0%26h%3DDBTiPS2TIqcnH_pD4sXBLIHcH4wynT9f__6C3sfzFQA%3D&f=1&nofb=1[/img]
       And while millions think all we have to do is go green, seeds of
       our destruction grow.
       #Post#: 2093--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Phil Potts Date: December 16, 2021, 10:56 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=K-Dog link=topic=49.msg2092#msg2092
       date=1639672667]
       [img]
  HTML https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/XkJncitYy32ZhUtwuHWYzw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEyMDA7aD02NDY-/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/KjCkZAZkFV0.pD6wQ7Sjyg--~B/aD05MzQ7dz0xMjk2O2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/bloomberg_technology_68/15604ccd4c2388e8f4a4acbc84b1fbeb[/img]
       An interesting graphic.  I found the graph in a picture search.
       If you want to contribute to corporate energy use by all means
       delude yourself into thinking you can make a difference.
       [img]
  HTML https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.zDiN9Hb3jeX18x6JXgfI9QHaEL%26pid%3DApi&f=1[/img][img<br
       />width=200]
  HTML https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.istockphoto.com%2Fillustrations%2Fturn-off-the-lights-sticker-illustration-id1053470288%3Fk%3D6%26m%3D1053470288%26s%3D612x612%26w%3D0%26h%3DDBTiPS2TIqcnH_pD4sXBLIHcH4wynT9f__6C3sfzFQA%3D&f=1&nofb=1[/img]
       And while millions think all we have to do is go green, seeds of
       our destruction grow.
       [/quote]
       I bet Bitcoin beats all of them combined
       #Post#: 2095--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Energy Errata
       By: Phil Potts Date: December 16, 2021, 11:19 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I don't know about everyone else, but "sorry we haven't got
       any", is something I'm hearing more and more:
  HTML https://www.freedomforumcanada.com/investment_adviser_seeking_alpha_predicts_2022_will_be_the_beginning_of_the_era_of_widespread_global_scarcity
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