DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Global Collapse
HTML https://globalcollapse.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: General Discussion
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Energy Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: December 5, 2021, 9:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Did you read the article? They are talking about a simple
compression, expansion cycle to store energy. I don't think it
makes sense personally but there is noention of magic.
#Post#: 1968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Energy Errata
By: RE Date: December 5, 2021, 11:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=49.msg1967#msg1967
date=1638761475]
Did you read the article? They are talking about a simple
compression, expansion cycle to store energy. I don't think it
makes sense personally but there is noention of magic.
[/quote]
I didn't read it, no.
We've discussed gas compression and gravity systems as a means
for storing energy before. If you have the spare energy, say
from wind or solar PV, it is much simpler technolgically than
batts, doesn't require as much mining and manufacturing and
probably could have decent efficiency. But it doesn't need CO2,
any gas will do. The amount you could capture out of the
atmosphere to bottle up is minute, it's no way to sequester
carbon out of the atmosphere.
Separatiing the CO2 out of the atmosphere also takes energy.
That's similar to desalinating water. You're better off just
compressing air. That could be done with an old fashion
mechanical windmill, no electricity at all. Then use the
compressed air to run your power tools pneumatically. Then you
have no loss converting bettween mechanical and electric energy.
You couldn't run a car this way though, at least not very far.
It doesn't have enough energy density.
Using spare energy to produce hydrogen is another option. That
would provide fuel to run carz and trucks, also clean heating
fuel. It would take a HUGE number of windmills and solar pv
panels to do that though.
RE.
#Post#: 1969--------------------------------------------------
What the Global Collapse Forum is About (and NOT about)
By: RE Date: December 6, 2021, 3:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Phil Potts link=topic=49.msg1961#msg1961
date=1638734369]
This conversation is pointless and spamming over useful and
interesting posts. Out.
[/quote]
Not only is it spamming it's an anachronism, ancient history.
Who said what to whom a decade ago on PeakOil.com or LATOC isn't
what this forum is about. It's a CURRENT EVENTS forum about
things occurring RIGHT NOW, not about predictions made a decade
or two in the past.
The name of the Forum is GLOBAL COLLAPSE. It's not a Peak Oil
website, and neither was the Diner.
Current Hot Topics in Global Collapse include:
Economics
China Property market collapse
Supply Chain breakdown
Labor shortages
Wealth distribution
Energy
Gllobal NG and Coal shortages
Electricity blackouts and brownouts
Winter Heating and distribution problems
Renewable energy attempts
Politics
Big 3 (Russia, China, FSoA) manipulations and conflicts
Terrorism and regional wars
Riots and political unrest
Government financing
Population
Global Birthrate decline
Refugees and Migration issues
Food insecurity, Starvation, Disease and War
Food
Drought and Flood effects
Fertilizer availability
Topsoil and groundwater depletion
Health & Medicine
Pandemic effects
Lockdowns
Vaccination efficacy
Hospital capacity
Political polarization
Climate
Weather related disasters
Ecosystem effects
Sea level rise and ice sheet melting
I post current events articles on these topics every day for
discussion. These are not the only topics of course, there are
many more. However, what anybody said a decade ago regarding
Peak Oil is not among them. Future posting here on this topic
will be terminated with extreme prejudice.
RE
#Post#: 1977--------------------------------------------------
Europe’s Energy Crisis Is About to Get Worse as Winter Arrives
By: RE Date: December 6, 2021, 7:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-28/europe-s-energy-crisis-is-about-to-get-worse-as-winter-arrives
Europe’s Energy Crisis Is About to Get Worse as Winter Arrives
#Post#: 1979--------------------------------------------------
Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
By: RE Date: December 7, 2021, 2:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]
HTML https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/55a1666/2147483647/resize/1110/quality/100/?url=https://static.politico.com/55/ff/4c326f6f47029c22df6d65bc4d99/pm-1118-storrow-offshorewind-1160-01.jpg[/center]
Wind Power sounds great. All that Free, Clean, Carbon Free
power is just waiting to be harvested. "The answer my friend is
Blowin' in the Wind".
As usual however, the Devil is in the Details.
MOVING all that power from where the wind USUALLY (not always)
blows to the places that use the power is an even bigger task
than building the windmills themselves, itself an immense
project. Where is all the copper going to come from to
manufacture the transmission cables, and at what price? What is
the maintenance cost for all these turbines offshore? What kind
of damage do you get when there is a storm, much less a
Hurricane? Are there enough maintenance personnel available to
hire to do this job? How much do you need to pay them for it?
If you have decent and fairly regular wind near your house or
community, Wind power is a good addition to your local
electrical security. The Mega-Projects though which are about
to receive a huge amount of Goobermint funding are just nuts.
All funded of course by still more irredeemable debt.
Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
HTML https://www.eenews.net/articles/offshore-wind-grid-woes-may-be-worse-than-previously-thought/
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6fAO4idaI
RE
#Post#: 1982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
By: Nearings fault Date: December 7, 2021, 7:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=49.msg1979#msg1979 date=1638865645]
[center]
HTML https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/55a1666/2147483647/resize/1110/quality/100/?url=https://static.politico.com/55/ff/4c326f6f47029c22df6d65bc4d99/pm-1118-storrow-offshorewind-1160-01.jpg[/center]
Wind Power sounds great. All that Free, Clean, Carbon Free
power is just waiting to be harvested. "The answer my friend is
Blowin' in the Wind".
As usual however, the Devil is in the Details.
MOVING all that power from where the wind USUALLY (not always)
blows to the places that use the power is an even bigger task
than building the windmills themselves, itself an immense
project. Where is all the copper going to come from to
manufacture the transmission cables, and at what price? What is
the maintenance cost for all these turbines offshore? What kind
of damage do you get when there is a storm, much less a
Hurricane? Are there enough maintenance personnel available to
hire to do this job? How much do you need to pay them for it?
If you have decent and fairly regular wind near your house or
community, Wind power is a good addition to your local
electrical security. The Mega-Projects though which are about
to receive a huge amount of Goobermint funding are just nuts.
All funded of course by still more irredeemable debt.
Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
HTML https://www.eenews.net/articles/offshore-wind-grid-woes-may-be-worse-than-previously-thought/
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6fAO4idaI
RE
[/quote]I mostly agree with your analysis. It is a goverent job
not an industry one for sure just like the original rural
electrification project. The copper would be for the turbines
the cables would be aluminum...
#Post#: 1983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
By: RE Date: December 7, 2021, 8:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=49.msg1982#msg1982
date=1638882672]
I mostly agree with your analysis. It is a goverent job not an
industry one for sure just like the original rural
electrification project. The copper would be for the turbines
the cables would be aluminum...
[/quote]
A LOT of Aluminum then. It only has 60% of the conductivity as
copper. So you need cables almost twice as thick*. To produce
aluminum also requires just tons of electricity.
Today's aluminum price is $2592.85/ton. How many tons of
aluminum would it take to run say 20 miles of cable from
offshore to carry the projected 30GW to substations and hook
them to the current grid? Forget the cost of upgrading the grid
for the moment.
This would just be if you could build it all today. These
prices are bound to rise significantly over the next 8 years.
10X that by 2050 is even more laughable.
*Ediit: Because the radius of a circle to its area is a square
law, the cables would not be that much thicker. Maybe 1.2X.
But it still takes nearly twice as much aluminum as copper to
carry the same current.
RE
#Post#: 1984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Offshore wind grid woes may be worse than previously thought
By: Phil Potts Date: December 7, 2021, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=RE link=topic=49.msg1983#msg1983 date=1638887226]
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=49.msg1982#msg1982
date=1638882672]
I mostly agree with your analysis. It is a goverent job not an
industry one for sure just like the original rural
electrification project. The copper would be for the turbines
the cables would be aluminum...
[/quote]
A LOT of Aluminum then. It only has 60% of the conductivity as
copper. So you need cables almost twice as thick. To produce
aluminum also requires just tons of electricity.
Today's aluminum price is $2592.85/ton. How many tons of
aluminum would it take to run say 20 miles of cable from
offshore to carry the projected 30GW to substations and hook
them to the current grid? Forget the cost of upgrading the grid
for the moment.
This would just be if you could build it all today. These
prices are bound to rise significantly over the next 8 years.
10X that by 2050 is even more laughable.
RE
[/quote]
Printing trillion$ causes rising poverty and that lowers energy
consumption. It's a virtuous circle.
#Post#: 1987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Energy Errata
By: Nearings fault Date: December 7, 2021, 2:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It's actually pretty interesting. Most high voltage lines are
aluminum where the increased resistance is much less of a factor
at say 100000 volts or so. Even the 200 and 400 amp underground
service lines are turning to aluminum due to copper prices. Raw
aluminum manufacture is extremely energy intensive but once it's
made reforming it and re-extruding it is not as bad as steel.
There is talk of running a smelter only during off peak hours in
the future or when the wind forecast is good. The whole grid
needs to be rethought if we get serious about greening it.
#Post#: 1990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Energy Errata
By: RE Date: December 7, 2021, 7:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nearings fault link=topic=49.msg1987#msg1987
date=1638910421]
It's actually pretty interesting. Most high voltage lines are
aluminum where the increased resistance is much less of a factor
at say 100000 volts or so. Even the 200 and 400 amp underground
service lines are turning to aluminum due to copper prices. Raw
aluminum manufacture is extremely energy intensive but once it's
made reforming it and re-extruding it is not as bad as steel.
There is talk of running a smelter only during off peak hours in
the future or when the wind forecast is good. The whole grid
needs to be rethought if we get serious about greening it.
[/quote]
Can you calculate a projected cost for the aluminum for the
project at today's prices? That would be interesting.
RE
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page