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#Post#: 90--------------------------------------------------
GM/Great Flood Critique
By: Admin Date: January 31, 2017, 1:34 pm
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Critique
HTML http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/agescience2.htm
Complete Geologic Column
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/basin3.gif
GM: The Talk.Origins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution
Controversy
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn
(1)Sedimentation Rate & Orbital Cycles
- The Cretaceous Carlile shale consists of sands and shales.
Fourier analysis of the Niobrara laminations reveals that they
vary in thickness according to the periodicities of the earth's
long-term orbital cycles (Fischer, 1993, p. 263-295).
(2)Multi-Year-Old Organism Fossils (Oncolite Algae Growth)
- There are also oncolites, an algal growth on shells after the
animals die which took time to grow (Wardlaw and Reinson, 1971,
p. 1762). An excellent example of an oncolite is shown in figure
58 of Dean and Fouch (1983, p. 123). It says: "Cross section of
an oncolite developed around a gastropod-shell nucleus from Ore
Lake, Michigan. Concentric layering is the result of annual
couplets of porous and dense laminae.)
Multi-Year-Old Coccolith Growth
- The Greenhorn limestone is made mostly of coccoliths, small
skeletal remains approximately 3-5 micrometers in diameter about
40 ft thick, 16 ledge-forming, burrowed limestone beds separated
by thin shales. The coccoliths had to grow in the water, then
die and fall to the bottom; then organisms had to burrow into
the sediment; then when coccoliths were not as productive, shale
was deposited, separating the limestone beds, all requiring
still water.
Multi-Year-Old Stromatolites
- The Duperow formation has stromatolites (limestone rocks
deposited by daily increments of limestone from algae on a
shallow (less than 30 feet) sea bottom (Burke, 1982, p. 554;
Altschuld and Kerr, 1983, p. 104).
(3)No Fossil Organisms Like Today's
- The upper Jurassic Continental Morrison formation has
footprints (Stokes, 1957, p. 952-954), fossil soil profiles
(Mantzios, 1989, p. 1166), mammals, plants, some coal (Brown,
1946, p 238-248) huge dinosaurs and smaller ones. The animals
and plants are different from anything alive today.
A:
HTML http://creation.com/werner-living-fossils
-
HTML http://creation.com/modern-birds-with-dinosaurs
(4)Dolomite Overheating
- 1300 feet of Bighorn Dolomite can not be Great Flood deposits
because each gram of carbonate gives off about 1207 kilocalories
per mole (Whittier et al, 1992, p. 576). To deposit these beds
in one year requires that the energy emitted by each meter
squared would be 278 times that received by the sun.
(5)Delicate Fossils
- There are also abundant fecal pellets and feeding traces
(Hattin, 1971, p. 412-431; Savrda and Bottjer, 1993, p.
263-295).
(6)Too Much Bioclastic Limestone
- The lower part of the Devonian formations consist of
bioclastic limestone, and the upper part interbedded carbonate
with anhydrite.
A:
HTML http://creation.com/can-flood-geology-explain-thick-chalk-beds
-
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_1/j10_1_107-113.pdf
-
HTML http://creation.com/grand-canyon-limestone-fast-or-slow-deposits
- ?
HTML http://creation.com/not-ancient-reefs-but-catastrophic-deposits

Too Many Crinoids
- The Mississippian Madison group largely consists of dead
crinoid parts. (Clark and Stearn, 1960, pp. 86-88): The upper
Mission Canyon formation or the Livingstone formation (of
Alberta) is a massive limestone formation composed of sand-sized
particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and
shells broken by the waves. The Madison sea must have been
shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells
and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the
calcite grains and the cross-bedding are additional evidence of
waves and currents at work. The Livingstone limestone may be
calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken
crinoid plates, enough crinoids to cover the entire earth to a
depth of 3 inches, but only a small part of a vast Mississippian
crinoid bed that almost does cover the world (Morton, 1984, p.
26-27), U.S., Canada, England, Belgium, European Russia, Egypt,
Libya, central Asia, and Australia.
(7)Non-Flood Sorting of Sediments & Fossils
- The geologic column is not sorted by ecological zones. The
Silurian Interlake, Devonian Prairie, Pennsylvanian Minnelusa
and Jurassic Morisson formations are continental deposits.
Oceanic deposits sandwich these beds. The ocean came and went
many times.
- The Paleozoic corals belong to one of three groups - only one
of which is found in Mesozoic rocks; the other two became
extinct at the end of the Paleozoic. The four-sided corals are
only found in the Paleozoic. Modern corals of the 6-sided or
8-sided kind are not found until the Triassic.
- Permian pollen is found in the salt; modern pollen is not
found (Wilgus and Holser, 1984, p. 765,766).
R:
HTML http://creation.com/pollen-paradox
- The Pierre shale has marine reptile bones concentrated in the
Sharon Springs member, not sorted as Morris would assume by
ecological zonation.
- Third, the geologic column is not divided by hydrodynamic
sorting.
- Fossil mammals are not found with the earliest dinosaurs & no
primates are found until the Ft. Union formation or that no full
dinosaur skeletons are found in the Tertiary section, implies
strongly that the column was not the result of a single
cataclysm. Worldwide, no whales are found with the large
Devonian fish. If the column was an ecological burial pattern,
then whales and porpoises should be buried with the fish.
<>
(8)Impossibility of Geocolumn Deposition in Short Timespan
(9)Too Much Evaporites
(10)Slow-Settling Particles
(11)Impact Signs vs Flood
(12)Fossils of Slow-Growing Trees
(13)Missing Sediments & Non-Flood Erosion
(8)Impossibility of Geocolumn Deposition in Short Timespan
- There is no way to have the whole column be deposited in a
single year.
__[How many years then?]
(9)Too Much Evaporites [They aren't evaporites; they're magma
deposits]
- The Opeche shale in the center of the basin, at its deepest
part, is 300 feet of salt covering 188,400 square kilometers.
__[How fast could brine dry out between tsunamis? Or could it
dry out under a load of salty limestone?]
- The Silurian Interlake formation consists of carbonates,
anhydrite, salt, with minor amounts of sand & throughout this
deposit are also burrows and mudcracks from drying out of the
layers (Lobue, 1983, p. 36,37).
__[If each megatsunami came a few weeks apart, would it be
enough time to dry out & form mudcracks, anhydrite, salt etc?]
- Anhydrite is an evaporitic mineral not compatible with a
global flood. The next Devonian bed is the Prairie Evaporite. It
consists of dolomite, salt, gypsum, anhydrite and potash. These
are generally considered evaporitic and thus incompatible with
deposition during a worldwide flood (Gerhard, Anderson and
Fischer, 1990, p. 515).
__[Were there heat sources during the cataclysm & enough time
between tsunamis for significant evaporation?]
- There is also salt cementation with salt deposited in the
fractures and crevices in the rock. Halite plugged burrows are
also found.
__[Could the source of salt be like the brine lake under the
Gulf of Mexico carried by tsunamis?]
- The Triassic Spearfish formation contains the Pine Salt Bed,
some gypsum and highly oxidized sands and shales, found in
modern arid environments, gypsum being an evaporitic mineral
(Wilmarth, 1938, p. 2037). There are conglomerates in which the
Mississippian rocks were deposited, hardened, then eroded and
fragments deposited in the Spearfish redbeds. (Francis, 1956, p.
18)
__[How long does it take gypsum to dry out in air, or under
overburden?]
- The early oceanic sediments are covered by desert deposits of
the Prairie Evaporite, Interlake, and Minnelusa formations.
Oncolites found in the Interlake prove that these deposits took
some time to be deposited. There are 11 separate salt beds
scattered through four ages: 2 Jurassic Salt beds, 1 Permian
salt bed, 7 Mississippian salt beds, and one thick Devonian
salt. Half of these salt beds are up to 200 feet thick. The top
Mississippian salt is 96% pure sodium chloride! Since they are
sandwiched between other sediments, to explain them on the basis
of a global, one-year flood, requires a mechanism by which
undersaturated sea water can dump its salt. If the sea were
super-saturated during the flood, then no fish would have
survived.
__[Would these salt deposits all be from undersea brine lakes?]
- The Minnelusa formation contains three features incompatible
with the flood: dolomite with desiccation cracks; two anhydrite
layers with a peculiar "chicken-wire" structure (Achauer, 1982,
p. 195); cross-bedding identical to modern desert dunes;
"chicken-wire" anhydrite only forms above 35 degree C. and near
the water table (Hsu, 1972, p. 30). This type of anhydrite is
deposited in the Persian Gulf area today.
__[Would a few weeks time between tsunamis be enough time to
produce these effects?]
- The erosional layers and the evaporative salt requires much
more time than a single year to account for the whole column.
__[Is that true?]
(10)Slow-Settling Particles
- The Bakken formation is an organic rich shale that required
tranquil, even stagnant, oxygen-poor water.
__[Could enough stagnant water have been available between
tsunamis to produce this organic matter?]
- The 200 feet of pure coccolith chalks of the Niobrara and the
bentonite deposits also require a lot of time. A chalk particle,
2 microns in radius, takes about 80 days to fall through only
300 feet of very still water.
- Some of the smaller volcanic ash particles in the bentonites
could take even longer to fall through 100 m in water than the
coccoliths.
__[Would chalk or ash particles settle quickly if the water were
saturated with them?]
A:
HTML http://creation.com/can-flood-geology-explain-thick-chalk-beds
-
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_1/j10_1_107-113.pdf
- The Dakota formation has numerous borings, relatively pure
volcanic ash layers (Lane, 1963, p. 229-256). If the ash layers
occurred during a raging flood, they would have been thoroughly
mixed with other sediment.
__[Was the ash sealed in by the shale layer above it?]
- The black shale with very small particle size requires quiet,
tranquil waters for deposition.
__[JB says that is false.]
- The Ordovician Winnipeg formation is very similar to the
Deadwood "suggesting that the Deadwood Sandstone may be a source
for the Winnipeg Sandstone" (Bitney, 1983, p. 1330) by local
erosion rather than a world wide catastrophe.
__[The two sandstones are 145 ft apart vertically. Would the two
basal layers have been deposited by successive tsunamis?]
(11)Impact Signs vs Flood
- The Hell Creek formation is the last Cretaceous deposit. It
has sands and shales, with dinosaurs and Cretaceous style
mammals. And it contains the famous iridium anomaly from the K/T
meteor impact. In 1984, the iridium in a 3 centimeter layer was
about 12 nannograms / gram (ng/g) and in the other layers it was
undetectable. Just below the iridium anomaly there is a ratio of
1 pollen grain to every fern spore. At the iridium anomaly, the
angiosperm pollen practically disappears, the ratio being 100
fern spore to every angiosperm pollen grain, as if the
angiosperm plants disappeared (Smit and Van der Kaars, 1984, p.
1177-1179). Why would a global flood cause fern/pollen and
iridium to alter in a way that would mimic an asteroid impact?
(Kamo and Krogh, 1995, p. 281-284; Nichols et al., 1986, p.
714-717)
__[Maybe there were impacts during the floods.]
(12)Fossils of Slow-Growing Trees
- The Fort Union formation is the first Tertiary deposit. It
cannot be the flood deposit. It has standing fossilized tree
stumps (Hickey, 1977, p. 10).
The Golden Valley Formation has tree trunk molds. This means
that the trees had time to rot away before they were buried by
the next layer, meaning that this layer took some time to be
deposited. (Hickey, 1977, p. 68-72,90-92,168)
__[Didn't the roots break off in tsunamis?]
(13)Missing Sediments
- There is no sand, or shale [in a sequence], so it is hard to
see how this could be the flood deposits.
__[Is it because tsunamis likely came from different directions
at different times during the cataclysm, picking up & dropping
different materials?]
Non-Flood Erosion
- The Devonian Dawson Bay formation is a carbonate which shows
evidence of subaerial erosion (Pound, 1988, p. 879; Dunn, 1983,
p. 79,85) which can't be created under flood waters.
__[Could the limestone have been eroded between tsunamis?]
- The Cambrian Deadwood Formation consists of a lower sandstone
with scolithos burrows widely found in similar basal sandstones
around the world.
__[- The Moine Thrust -
HTML http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/structure/assyntgeology/classic/assynt_shore/prpipes.jpg
- Closely spaced Skolithos burrows of the Tumblagooda Sandstone
can be up to 1 metre long
-
HTML http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/Images/Community-Education/GSWA_Kalbarritracks_01_rdax_620x827.JPG ]
__[Definition of basal conglomerate. A well-sorted,
lithologically homogeneous conglomerate that forms the bottom
stratigraphic unit of a sedimentary series and that rests on a
surface of erosion, thereby marking an unconformity; esp. a
coarse-grained beach deposit of an encroaching or transgressive
sea.]
__[Okay?]
-----
==2_ C14 Dating Diamonds
- D: why would anyone talk about carbon dating something like a
diamond? That makes NO sense. It's ONLY useful for dating things
that we know were once alive. It tells us with incredible
accuracy, up to 50,000 years (with current precision of
measurement but it may increase with newer technology), how long
ago the living cells in a material stopped continually
replenishing their C14 content, i.e. when they DIED. Based
strictly on the carbon dating of formerly living things and
disregarding mounds of other evidence, we know factually that
there were living things walking the Earth 50,000+ years ago.
Erosion Rate & Seafloor Sediments
- Re: One of the best evidence is coastal and continental
erosion. At the current rates of erosion the continents would
all erode completely below sea level within 20 million years and
the seafloors would have deep deposits of sediment. The
seafloors have very little sediment.
- MS: That's completely incorrect. Erosion rates are nowhere
near high enough to do that. And the seafloors are made up
almost entirely of sedimentary rock, except in the
tectonically-active areas where new rock is being formed by
subsurface vulcanism.
Impact Overheating
- An impact strong enough to move the Americas by 2000 miles in
a day would have turned the planet into a glowing cinder. It
wouldn't cause a "Great Flood," as there would be no water left.
Or air. Or anything else, other than molten rock. It would
send so much crustal material into orbit that the resulting dead
rock would have a ring system. There's a good chance that the
ring material would impact the moon, creating enough "drag" to
slow its orbital speed to the point that it actually crashed
back to Earth eventually, effectively destroying both bodies.
HTML http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=16789.msg294281#msg294281
- Those who do radioactive dating don't agree with your claims.
- Erosion rates don't even vaguely approach what you've claimed.

- Seafloors do have deep deposits of sediment.
- And an impact that could move continents would have destroyed
the planet, as far as it being anything approaching something
that could have life (and could have actually physically
destroyed the planet, turning it into an asteroid belt).
c
#Post#: 95--------------------------------------------------
Re: GM/Great Flood Critique
By: Admin Date: February 3, 2017, 8:08 pm
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GM: The Talk.Origins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution
Controversy
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn
The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood
Williston Basin
HTML http://ndstudies.gov/energy/level2/files/level2/img/module02/williston-basin-x-sec-08-29-14.jpg
The Geologic Column in North Dakota
GM: The Talk.Origins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution
Controversy
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn
The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood
- - We will now examine the strata that form the entire
geological column which is found in North Dakota.
- - The Geologic Column in North Dakota
- - The Cambrian of this region consists of the ____Deadwood
Formation.
- This formation consists of a lower ____sandstone with
scolithus burrows (Wilmarth, Part 1, 1938, p. 578.).
- These scolithos burrows are widely found in similar basal
sandstones around the world.
- They are found in Newfoundland, Scotland, Antarctica,
Greenland always in Cambrian sands.
- Thus, the basal sandstone appears to have been the tranquil
home for whatever animal made the scolithos burrows.
- Sedimentologically, these basal quartzites are nearly pure
sand and must have taken a lot of time to winnow the shale out
from them.
- It is unlikely that this winnowing could be accomplished in a
yearlong flood with all its turbulence.
__[- The Moine Thrust -
HTML http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/structure/assyntgeology/classic/assynt_shore/prpipes.jpg
- Closely spaced Skolithos burrows of the Tumblagooda Sandstone
can be up to 1 metre long
-
HTML http://www.dmp.wa.gov.au/Images/Community-Education/GSWA_Kalbarritracks_01_rdax_620x827.JPG ]__
__[Definition of basal conglomerate. A well-sorted,
lithologically homogeneous conglomerate that forms the bottom
stratigraphic unit of a sedimentary series and that rests on a
surface of erosion, thereby marking an unconformity; esp. a
coarse-grained beach deposit of an encroaching or transgressive
sea.]__
- There are some trilobites found in the Cambrian strata.
- - Above this is a ____black shale.
- Shale, due to the very small particle size requires quiet,
tranquil waters for deposition to take place.
__[?JB says this is disproven.]
- This is one of the unrecognized difficulties of flood geology.
- Every shale, which is approximately 46% of the geologic
column, is by its existence, evidence for tranquil waters.
- - Above this is the ____Ordovician Winnipeg formation.
- It consists of a ____basal sand whose lithology is very
similar to that of the Deadwood scolithus sand, "suggesting that
the Deadwood Sandstone may be a source for the Winnipeg
Sandstone" (Bitney, 1983, p. 1330).
- This would mean that local erosion was the cause of the sand
for the Winnipeg sand rather than a world wide catastrophe.
__[?Same source for 2 sandstone layers?]
- The Winnipeg does not have scolithus burrows.
- - Above this is the ____Icebox shale.
- Once again a shale requires still water for deposition.
- - Above this lies 1300 feet of ____Ordovician limestone and
dolomite.
- These are the Red River, Stony Mountain and Stonewall
formations, collectively known as the ____Bighorn Dolomite.
(data from W. H. Hunt Trust Larson #1 well, Mckenzie Co., North
Dakota)
- These can not be the flood deposits for reason of heat.
- Each gram of carbonate gives off about 1207 kilocalories per
mole (Whittier et al, 1992, p. 576).
- Since the density of the carbonate is around 2.5 g/cc this
means that there are 2.2 x 10^6 moles of carbonate deposited
over each meter.
- Multiply this by 1,207,000 joules per mole and divide by the
solar constant and you find that to deposit these beds in one
year requires that the energy emitted by each meter squared
would be 278 times that received by the sun.
- Such energies would fry everybody and everything.
__[?I don't understand what heat is produced by carbonate.]
- Besides, throughout these carbonates are layers upon layers of
burrows (Gerhard, Anderson and Fischer, 1990, p. 513).
- These Ordovician carbonates also show interesting
sedimentological features.
- Fossils include graptolites, gastropods, cephalopods, and
corals.
- The Red River dolomite is burrowed by some type of animal
(Kohm and Louden, 1983, p. 27).
- - Above the Ordovician carbonates lies the ____Silurian
Interlake formation.
- This formation consists of ____carbonates, anhydrite, salt,
with minor amounts of sand.
- Layers throughout this deposit are also burrows and mudcracks
from drying out of the layers (Lobue, 1983, p. 36,37).
__[??Each megatsunami would come a few weeks apart, maybe enough
time to form mudcracks.]
- There are also intact corals of a totally different type than
are alive today.
- The Paleozoic corals [all] belong to one of three groups -
only one of which is found in Mesozoic rocks; the other two
became extinct at the end of the Paleozoic.
- The four-sided corals are only found in the Paleozoic.
- Modern corals of the 6-sided or 8-sided kind are not found
until the Triassic.
__[??The lower corals may have been too thoroughly buried; the
upper ones may have mutated from the lower via electrical
effects during the cataclysm.]
- - Above this are the ____Devonian formations.
- The lower Devonian is the Winnepegosis formation and it
consists of a bioclastic (meaning made up of the shells of dead
carbonate producing animals) ____limestone, and the upper part
is interbedded ____carbonate with anhydrite.
__[?Interbeds are all from the same time.]

- Mud cracks are also found as are burrows.(Perrin, 1983, p. 54,
57.)
- There is no sand, no shale so it is hard to see how this could
be the flood deposits.
__[?Tsunamis likely came from different directions at different
times during the cataclysm, picking up & dropping different
materials.]
- Anhydrite is an evaporitic mineral and not compatible with a
global flood.
- The next Devonian bed is the ____Prairie Evaporite.
- It consists of ____dolomite, salt, gypsum, anhydrite and
potash.
- These are generally considered evaporitic and thus
incompatible with deposition during a worldwide flood (Gerhard,
Anderson and Fischer, 1990, p. 515).
__[??There were likely heat sources during the cataclysm & there
may have been enough time between megatsunamis for significant
evaporation.]
- There are also oncolites which are the spherically concentric
carbonate depositions, due to algal growth on shells after the
animals die.
- This takes time (Wardlaw and Reinson, 1971, p. 1762).
- An excellent example of an oncolite is shown in figure 58 of
Dean and Fouch (1983, p. 123).
- It says: "Cross section of an oncolite developed around a
gastropod-shell nucleus from Ore Lake, Michigan.
- Concentric layering is the result of annual couplets of porous
and dense laminae.)
__[??Maybe there were beds of dead shells long before the
tsunamis hit.]
- Fig. 59 is an example from the Eocene period.
- The ____Devonian Dawson Bay formation is a ____carbonate which
shows evidence of subaerial erosion (Pound, 1988, p. 879).
- The evidence consists of eroded limestone horizons which can't
be created under the ocean.
__[?Maybe the limestone was eroded between megatsunamis.]
- There is also salt cementation.
- This means that salt was deposited in the fractures and
crevices in the rock.
- Halite plugged burrows are found.
__[??There's a brine lake under the Gulf of Mexico; maybe
tsunamis carried such brine lake contents onto land.]
- Numerous erosional surfaces are found (Dunn, 1983, p. 79,85).
- Once again, hardly a result to be expected from the flood.
__[?There was likely a lot of erosion between successive
tsunamis.]
- Next up is the ____Duperow formation.
- It also shows signs of subaerial erosion, salt deposition in
the pores, ____anhydrite deposition.
- The deposition of these chemicals are more consistent with
arid environments than with flood environments. (Dunn, 1974, p.
907).
__[Maybe the aridity occurred between successive tsunamis.]
- Burrows and stromatolites (limestone rocks deposited by daily
increments of limestone [from] algae on a shallow (less than 30
feet) sea bottom. See Burke (1982, p. 554) and Altschuld and
Kerr (1983, p. 104).
__[??*Need more info.]
- - Above this is the ____Birdbear formation with desiccation,
____caliche <mineral deposit of gravel, sand, and nitrates or
area of calcium carbonate formed in semiarid soils> development
(caliche is widespread in west Texas- a dry area) and burrows
(Ehrets and Kissling, 1983, p. 1336; Halabura, 1983, p. 121).
- - Above this is the Threeforks shale.
- Once again, a shale requires quiet water to be deposited.
(Wilmarth, 1938, part 2, p. 2144)
- The overlying Bakken formation is an organic rich shale.
- Tranquil, even stagnant-oxygen poor, water required.
__[??Maybe megatsunamis could provide such oxygen-poor water.]
- The ____Mississippian Madison group is probably my favorite
deposit in the whole world.
- It largely consists of dead ____crinoid parts.
- In the Hunt Larson #1 well, it is 2200 feet thick.
- The following quote makes the problem with the Madison quite
understandable (Clark and Stearn, 1960, pp. 86-88):
The upper Mission Canyon formation (of the northwestern
states and the Williston Basin) or the Livingstone formation (of
Alberta) is more interesting, not only for its contribution to
mountain scenery but also for its lithology and importance as an
oil reservoir.
Much of the massive limestone formation is composed of
sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid
plates, and shells broken by the waves.
- Such a sedimentary rock qualifies for the name sandstone
because it is composed of particles of sand size cemented
together; because the term sandstone is commonly understood to
refer to a quartz-rich rock, however, these limestone sandstones
are better called calcarenites.
- The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and
currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals
when they died.
- The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding that
is common in this formation are additional evidence of waves and
currents at work.
- Even in Mississippian rocks, where whole crinoids are rare
fossils, and as a result it is easy to underestimate the
population of these animals during the Paleozoic era.
- Crinoidal limestones, such as the Mission Canyon-Livingstone
unit, provide an estimate, even though it be of necessity a
rough one, of their abundance in the clear shallow seas they
loved.
- In the Canadian Rockies the Livingstone limestone was
deposited to a thickness of 2,000 feet on the margin of the
Cordilleran geosyncline, but it thins rapidly eastward to a
thickness of about 1,000 feet in the Front Ranges and to about
500 feet in the Williston Basin.
- Even though its crinoidal content decreases eastward, it may
be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken
crinoid plates.
- How many millions, billions trillions of crinoids would be
required to provide such a deposit?
- The number staggers the imagination.
>
- That is enough crinoids to cover the entire earth to a depth
of 3 inches and yet this deposit is only a small part of a vast
Mississippian crinoid bed that almost does cover the world
(Morton, 1984, p. 26-27).
- These ____crinoidal limestones are called the Redwall in
Arizona, the Leadville, in Colorado, the Rundle, in Canada, the
Lisburne, in Alaska, the Keokuk and Burlington in the
Mid-continent region of the U. S.
- Other crinoidal limestones are found in England, Belgium,
European Russia, Egypt, Libya, central Asia, and Australia.
- How can the preflood world be covered in dead crinoids and
still have room for people and the dinosaurs?
__[???Potential sources of the dead crinoids may be sea floors
or continental shelves. They're smaller than a penny, so they
may have flourished between tsunamis.]
- At the top of the Madison are ____karsts and occasionally,
caverns due to subaerial erosion, with salt deposition etc.
- It is also heavily burrowed. Other fossils include half
millimeter long scolecodonts, spores, coral, ostracods,
gastropods and plants (Altschuld and Kerr, 1983, p. 106,107).
- - Above the Madison is the ____Big Snowy group.
- The lower part is composed of algal laminated ____dolomite
with desiccation features.
- Intertidal channels are cut into this surface and are filled
with sand. (Guthrie, 1985, p. 850)
- - Above this is the ____Minnelusa formation which contains
three features which are incompatible with the flood.
- First there is a desiccated ____dolomite with desiccation
cracks.
- Secondly, there are two ____anhydrite layers with a peculiar
"chicken-wire" structure (Achauer, 1982, p. 195).
- Thirdly, the ____sands are cross-bedded in a fashion identical
to modern desert dunes!
- The importance of these three features is that desiccation is
not likely in a world wide flood, and "chicken-wire" anhydrite
only forms above 35 degree C. and near the water table (Hsu,
1972, p. 30).
- This type of anhydrite is deposited in the Persian Gulf area
today.
__[??Anhydrite near water table may need more info.]
- Fossils include brachiopods, cephalopods, gastropods, fish
teeth, crinoids pelecypods.
- None of the Minnelusa beds are likely to be deposited under
flood waters.
- - The ____Opeche shale is of ____Permian age and overlies the
Minnelusa.
- The interesting thing about the Opeche is that in the center
of the basin, at its deepest part, it is ____salt - 300 feet of
salt.
- Permian pollen is found in the salt, modern pollen is not
found (Wilgus and Holser, 1984, p. 765,766).
__[??Why no modern pollen? Why pollen in Precambrian?]
- This bed has the appearance of a period of time in which the
Williston Sea dried up, leaving its salt behind in the deepest
parts of the basin as would be expected.
- The area of salt deposition is 188,400 square kilometers.
Assuming that over this area the salt averages half that 300
feet(91 m) or averages 45 meters, then this deposit represents 9
trillion cubic meters of salt!
- With a density of 2160 kg/m^3 this represents the evaporation
of 845 million cubic kilometers of seawater.
- This is 1/14 of the world's ocean water.
- This is hardly something to be expected in a global flood.
__[???Need to determine how fast brine can dry out between
tsunamis. Or could it concentrate under salty limestone, the
next layer above?]
- - Above this is the ____Minnekahta limestone which was
deposited in hypersaline waters.
- Hypersaline waters were not likely to be the flood waters
which would have been brackish at worst due to the large influx
of rainwater.
__[?Rainwater would not add much to the tsunamis.]
- - Next is the ____Triassic Spearfish formation.
- It contains the Pine ____Salt Bed, some gypsum and highly
oxidized ____sands and ____shales.
- These red beds have the appearance of the deposits found in
modern arid environments. Gypsum is an evaporitic mineral.
__[??More salt. Need to see how long it takes gypsum to dry out
in air, or under overburden.]
- The Spearfish deposits have the appearance of modern deposits
found on an arid intertidal flat.(Wilmarth, 1938, p. 2037)
- There are conglomerates in which the Mississippian rocks were
deposited, hardened, then eroded and fragments deposited in the
Spearfish redbeds. (Francis, 1956, p. 18)
- - The ____Jurassic Piper formation comes next.
- The lowest member is the Dunham ____salt (Gerhard,Anderson and
Fischer, 1983, p. 529).
- Highly oxidized ____red beds, (normally marine deposits are
dark, continental, subaerial deposits are reddish) with
____gypsum, an evaporitic bed lies above the salt (Peterson,
1958, p. 107).
- A small ____limestone followed by more ____redbeds and
____gypsum finishes the Piper formation.
- - The ____Rierdon formation is a set of interbedded marine and
evaporitic rocks.
- Some times the ocean covered the area and then it was exposed
long enough for ____gypsum and ____anhydrite and once again
____salt to be formed.
- Remember that it must be above 35 degree C [95F] for anhydrite
to form.
- Ocean water is not often that hot.
- These beds are also very fossiliferous, containing pelecypods,
ostracods, and foraminifera (Peterson, 1972, p. 178).
- This formation also contains oolitic ____limestones.
- Since oolites are formed from algal deposition of limestone,
this bed requires some time.
__[??How much time did algae need to deposit this lime?]
- - The ____Jurassic Swift formation is predominantly ____shale
in the lower part.
- Shale requires tranquil water for deposition.
- This shale has abundant belemnites, oysters and pelecypods.
All oceanic creatures.
- These beds are above the terrestrial, salt depositing beds
discussed previously.
- This oceanic deposit does not look like a flood deposit but
the tranquil deposition from an ocean (Peterson, 1958, p.112).
__[???]
- - The upper ____Jurassic Continental Morrison formation is
next.
- This is the bed with all the dinosaur bones.
- It extends from Canada to Arizona.
- It consists of ____sands and ____shales.
- It has footprints (Stokes, 1957, p. 952-954), fossil soil
profiles (Mantzios, 1989, p. 1166), mammals, plants, some coal
(Brown, 1946, p 238-248).
- Both the mammals and plants are different from anything alive
today.
- Huge dinosaurs, as well as smaller ones are found here.
__[??Why no modern mammals & plants? They became extinct it
seems.]
- - The ____Cretaceous begins with the ____Dakota Group.
- Unique ammonites mark each of the beds in the Cretaceous.
- The Dakota also is formed of ____sand and ____shales with
____lignite (Bolyard, 1965, p. 1574).
- Parts of this group have ripple marks, burrows, animal tracks,
worm trails.
- The deposits are interpreted as being formed by a delta
(Bolyard and McGregor, 1966, p. 2221-2224).
- The Dakota formation has numerous channels eroded into
underlying strata.
- Some of these channels are 30 feet deep.
- There are numerous borings, ____volcanic ash layers, in which
the ash is relatively pure.
- If the volcanoes which produced these ash layers occurred
during a raging flood, the ash would have been thoroughly mixed
with other sediment. - They aren't.
__[??Was the ash sealed in by shale?]
Plant fragments are found throughout the strata (Lane, 1963, p.
229- 256)
- - The ____Belle Fourche shale is next.
- As mentioned many times previously, due to small particle
size, a shale needs tranquil water.
- There is a ____bentonite (volcanic ash) bed near the base
which would be mixed in with other sediments if it were laid
down in a raging flood.
- - Above this is the ____Greenhorn limestone.
- The limestones are made mostly of coccoliths, small skeletal
remains approximately 3-5 micrometers in diameter.
- This formation is about 40 ft thick and consists of 16
ledge-forming, burrowed limestone beds separated by thin shales.
- Over a distance of 450 miles the ledges lie on and below
persistent bentonite (volcanic ash beds).
- The parallelism proves that the ledges are synchronous across
their extent.
- The coccoliths had to grow in the water, and then die and fall
to the bottom.
- After this, organisms had to burrow into the sediment.
- When the coccoliths were not as productive in the waters
above, ____shale was deposited, separating the limestone beds.
- All of this required still water.
__[??]
- there are also abundant fecal pellets in this deposit as well
as burrows and feeding traces (marks an animal makes on the
sediment when he is feeding) (Hattin, 1971, p. 412-431; Savrda
and Bottjer, 1993, p. 263-295).
- - The ____Cretaceous Carlile shale lies above the Greenhorn.
- It consists of ____sands and ____shales.
- There are erosional channels, burrows, feeding markings.
- Shark teeth and bones are found.
- A shark during its lifetime sheds numerous teeth which fall to
the ocean floor to be buried (McLane, 1982, p. 71-90).
- - The ____Niobrara Chalk is next.
- It too is made up largely of coccoliths, has abundant fecal
pellets, which are made of the eaten remains of coccoliths.
- Whatever fish dined on the plankton, let their presence be
known by leaving their droppings.
- More than 100 bentonite beds are found throughout the
formation.
- Fish bones and scales are found throughout the formation.
- The fossils of the Niobrara are quite interesting.
- There is a 14-foot Portheus (fish) which apparently died after
trying to digest a smaller 6-foot fish.
- Skulls of the giant marine lizard Tylosaurus was found.
- Pterodactyls have also been recovered from this bed (Stokes
and Judson, 1968, p. 372,377,379).
- Sediment filled burrows occur rarely in the bed (Hattin, 1981,
p. 831- 849).
>
- But what has recently come to my attention is that Fourier
analysis of the Niobrara laminations reveals that the
laminations vary in thickness according to the periodicities of
the orbital cycles.
- If this bed were deposited in a two day time frame required by
the assumption of a global deluge, there is absolutely no reason
to find orbital periodicities in this rock (Fischer, 1993, p.
263-295).
__[??Which orbital cycles? Day? Moon? Year?]
- - The ____Pierre shale is rich in organic matter and it is
almost entirely contained in the fecal pellets.
- Marine reptile bones are concentrated in the ____Sharon
Springs member.
- Note in all the above, that the fossils are not sorted as
Morris would assume by ecological zonation.
__[??Non-ecological fossil sorting?]
- This marine bed is above the Morrison bed which contains the
dinosaurs (Parrish and Gautier, 1988, p. 232).
- There is also the ____Monument Hill Bentonite which is 150-220
feet thick and represents one heck of a volcanic eruption.
- Above this is another ____bentonite, the Kara, which is 100
feet thick.
- Mt. St. Helens pales by comparison (Robinson, et al., 1959, p.
109).
- - The ____Fox Hills formation is next.
- It is ____sands, ____shales, ____coal and ____limestone.
- It contains coal, root casts, Ophiomorpha (a crab) burrows,
dinosaur bones, turtle plates, shark teeth, and erosional
channels over 120 feet deep.
- There is a fossil clam bed (Pettyjohn, 1967, p. 1361-1367).
- - The ____Hell Creek formation is the last Cretaceous deposit.
- It tells one of the most interesting stories of any of the
beds in the column.
- Other than the types of animals found in it, it looks just
like the Ft. Union discussed below (McGookey, et al, 1972, p.
223).
>
- The Hell Creek section is formed of ____sands and ____shales,
with many, many meandering channels incised into it.
- The fauna found in it consists of dinosaurs and Cretaceous
style mammals.
- The highest dinosaur layer is at the top of this section.
>
- The Hell Creek section contains the famous iridium anomaly
from the K/T meteor impact.
- In 1984, the iridium in a 3 centimeter layer was about 12
nannograms / gram (ng/g) and in the other layers it was
undetectable.
- Extremely few dinosaur remains or Cretaceous style mammals are
found above the iridium anomaly and only in the lowest layers of
the Fort Union formation.
>
- They are believed to be eroded and re-deposited material.
>
- A look at the pollen/spore record reveals an interesting
pattern also.
- Just below the iridium anomaly there is a ratio of 1 pollen
grain to every fern spore.
- At the iridium anomaly, the angiosperm pollen practically
disappears, the ratio being 100 fern spore to every angiosperm
pollen grain.
- It is as if the angiosperm plants disappeared.
- Several taxa of angiosperm pollen disappear at the iridium
anomaly (Smit and Van der Kaars, 1984, p. 1177-1179).
- The stratigraphically equivalent strata in Saskatchewan and
New Mexico also shows the iridium anomaly and the quantity of
angiosperm pollen is severely decreased relative to the spores
of ferns.
>
- The question is why would a global flood cause fern/pollen and
iridium to alter in a way that would mimic an asteroid impact?
(Kamo and Krogh, 1995, p. 281-284; Nichols et al., 1986, p.
714-717)
__[?Maybe there were impacts during the floods.]
- - The ____Fort Union formation is the first ____Tertiary
deposit.
- It also cannot be the flood deposit.
- It consists of ____shale, ____sandstone, and ____conglomerate.
- The fossils consist of marsupials, a bat, the earliest
monkeys, the earliest ungulates, alligator, root casts,
erosional channels, fossil leaves, spore and pollen (Keefer,
1961, p. 1310-1232).
- Animal burrows are quite common as are minerals deposited in
poorly drained swamps, e.g. pyrite and siderite (Jackson, 1979,
p. 831-832).
- It also has standing fossilized tree stumps (Hickey, 1977, p.
10).
- - The ____Golden Valley Formation is made of two layers, a
hard kaolinitic ____claystone and an upper member made of
____sandstone lenses interspersed with parallel bedding made
from finer grained material as well as numerous incised channels
cutting through the section.
- This bed contains a unique plant fossil Salvinia
preauriculata.
- The list of plants remains found is quite long.
- The animals include fish, amphibians, reptiles (4 species of
crocodile), mammals such as five genera of insectivores, three
primates, rodents, a pantodont, an allothere, Hyracotherium,
which is the ancestor of the horse, and an artiodactyl.
- Fresh water mollusks, and two species of insects are also
found.
- There are also tree trunk molds.
- This means that the trees had time to rot away before they
were buried by the next layer, meaning that this layer took some
time to be deposited. (Hickey, 1977, p. 68-72,90-92,168)
__[?The roots didn't rot away, they broke off in tsunamis.]
- - The rest of the Tertiary consists of sediments like the
Golden Valley followed by a ____gravel bed and topped by
____Glacial tills.
- - The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 well in Section 10
Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep.
- This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden
Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union
Formation.
- The various horizons described above were encountered at the
following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet
- - Conclusion - What does all this mean?
First, as I have noted before, the concept quite prevalent
among some Christians that the geologic column does not exist is
quite wrong. Morris and Parker (1987, p. 163) write:
Now, the geologic column is an idea, not an actual
series of rock layers. Nowhere do we find the complete sequence.
They are wrong.
- - You just saw the whole column piled up in one place where
one oil well can drill through it.
- Not only that, the entire geologic column is found in 25 other
basins around the world, piled up in proper order.
- These basins are:
The Ghadames Basin in Libya
The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
The Adana Basin in Turkey
The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
The Carpathian Basin in Poland
The Baltic Basin in the USSR
The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
The Jiuxi Basin China
The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
The Tarim Basin China
The Szechwan Basin China
The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
The Williston Basin in North Dakota
The Tampico Embayment Mexico
The Bogata Basin Colombia
The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta
(Sources:
Robertson Group, 1989;
-
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#ref-robertson
A.F. Trendall et al , editors, Geol. Surv. West. Australia
Memoir 3, 1990, pp 382, 396;
-
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#ref-trendall
N.E. Haimla et al, The Geology of North America, Vol. L,
DNAG volumes, 1990, p. 517)
-
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/basin3.gif
T. Moore's Map
(Figure courtesy of Thomas Moore)
- - Second, the existence of desert deposits is quite hard to
place in the context of a global flood.
- Morris and Morris (1989, p. 37) write:
-
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#ref-morris89
If real desert-formed features do exist in the deeper
geologic deposits, this could indeed be a problem for the
Biblical model since the antediluvian environment was said by
God to be all 'very good' and the future promised restoration of
these to good conditions to the earth includes desert
reclamation (e.g. Isaiah 35).
>
The early oceanic sediments are covered by desert deposits
of the Prairie Evaporite, Interlake, and Minnelusa formations.
Oncolites found in the Interlake prove that these deposits took
some time to be deposited. There are 11 separate salt beds
scattered through four ages: 2 Jurassic Salt beds, 1 Permian
salt bed, 7 Mississippian salt beds, and one thick devonian
salt. Half of these salt beds are up to 200 feet thick. The top
Mississippian salt is 96% pure sodium chloride! Since they are
sandwiched between other sediments, to explain them on the basis
of a global, one-year flood, requires a mechanism by which
undersaturated sea water can dump its salt. If the sea were
super-saturated during the flood, then no fish would have
survived.
__[?]
- - Third, the geologic column is not divided by hydrodynamic
sorting.
__[?]
Whitcomb and Morris (1961, p. 276) write:
-
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#ref-whitcomb
In general, though, as a statistical average, beds would
tend to be deposited in just the order that has been ascribed to
them in terms of the standard geologic column. That is on top of
the beds of marine vertebrates would be found amphibians, then
reptiles and finally birds and mammals. This is in the order:
(1) of increasing mobility and therefore increasing ability to
postpone inundation; (2) of decreasing density and other
hydrodynamic factors tending to promote earlier and deeper
sedimentation, and (3) of increasing elevation of habitat and
therefore time required for the Flood to attain stages
sufficient to overtake them.
The biggest single factor for how fast an object settles in
a fluid is the size. The relevant physical law is Stoke's Law.
The larger an object, the faster it falls. A cat can survive a
fall from a 20 story building because it falls at a speed of
only 60 mph. A human dies because he reaches a terminal velocity
of 120 mph if laid out like a skydiver, 180 if He falls feet
first. Thus for any given habitat, the largest animals should be
on the bottom. There are a lot of very small dinosaurs found in
the Morrison formation, with the giants, both of which are below
the Niobrara which contains the 20 foot long fish and micrometer
sized chalk particles. Large, teleost fish are found well above
the layers in which fish are first found.
- - Fourth, the geologic column is not sorted be ecological
zones.
- The Silurian Interlake, Devonian Prairie, Pennsylvanian
Minnelusa and Jurassic Morisson formations are continental
deposits.
- Oceanic deposits sandwich these beds.
- The ocean came and went many times.
__[?As in megatsunamis.]
- - Fifth, the persistent burrowing which is found throughout
the geologic column, the erosional layers and the evaporative
salt requires much more time than a single year to account for
the whole column.
__[?How many years?]
- Here is how I know the Williston Basin sediments couldn't be
deposited in a single year.
- 15,000 feet divided by 365 days equals 41 feet per day.
- Assuming that a burrow is only 1 foot long and that the
creature could not survive the burial by an additional foot of
sediment, the creature doing the burrowing must accomplish his
work in less than 40 minutes.
- That doesn't sound all that bad, until it is realized that if
the poor critter ever stops to rest, even for a half an hour, he
will be buried too deeply to escape.
- - The pure coccolith chalks of the Niobrara and the bentonite
deposits also require a lot of time.
- A chalk particle, 2 microns in radius, takes about 80 days to
fall through only 300 feet of very still water.
__[?Depends how saturated the water is.]
- The 200 feet of the Niobrara Chalk would have to be deposited
in 4 days if the column was the result of a 1- year flood.
- The detection of long-period cyclicities in the Niobrara which
match those of the earth's long-term orbital periodicities must
cause one to pause and think about the concept that the geologic
column is due to a single cataclym.
- Some of the smaller volcanic ash particles in the bentonites
could take even longer to fall through 100 m in water than the
coccoliths.
__[?Saturation?]
- - Sixth, the fact that the fossil mammals are not found with
the earliest dinosaurs, or that no primates are found until the
Ft. Union formation or that no full dinosaur skeletons are found
in the Tertiary section, implies strongly that the column was
not the result of a single cataclysm.
- Worldwide, no whales are found with the large Devonian fish.
- If the column was an ecological burial pattern, then whales
and porpoises should be buried with the fish. They aren't.
__[?]
- The order of the fossils must be explained either by
progressive creation or evolution.
- - Seventh, until Christian catastrophists can explain the
facts of the geologic column, they need to tone down their
rhetoric against the geologist and other scientists.
- Paul Steidl (1979, p. 94) wrote:
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#ref-steidl
The entire scientific community has accepted the great
age of the universe; indeed, it has built all its science upon
that supposition. They will not give it up without a fight. In
fact, they will never give it up, even if it means compromising
their reason or even their professional integrity, for to admit
creation is to admit the existence of the God of the Bible.
Geology, like any science, is not immune from criticism. but
Christians who criticize geology should do so only after a
thorough understanding of the data, not as is usually the case
before such an understanding is gained. They should also be
willing to advance explanations for explaining the details
observed.
- - Eighth, those who would decry the use of uniformitarianism
in the interpretation of the fossil record need to show how
uniformitarian methodology is inappropriate when one looks at
the persistent burrowing, the orbital cyclicities, the abundant
erosional surfaces and footprints.
- They also need to show why the laws of physics (Stokes law)
does not apply to the deposition of 2 micron chalk particles,
and demonstrate what laws do apply in order to explain the
supposed rapid sedimentation of these beds.
- - Ninth and finally, the data shows that there is no strata
which can be identified as the flood strata and there is no way
to have the whole column be deposited in a single year.
__[?How many years?]
References:
Altschuld, N., and S. D. Kerr, 1983. "Mission Canyon and
Duperow Reservoirs" in J. E. Christopher and J. Kaldi, editors,
4th International Williston Basin Symposium. Special Publication
No. 6, Saskatchewan Geological Society, pp. 103-112.
Achauer, C. W., 1982. "Sabkha Anhydrite: The Supratidal
Facies of Cyclic Deposition in the Upper Minnelusa Formation
(Permian) Rozet Fields Area, Powder River Basin, Wyoming" in
Depositional and Diagenetic Spectra of Evaporites, SEPM Core
Workshop No. 3 Calgary Canada, June 26-27, 1982. pp. 193-209.
Bitney, Mary, 1983. "Winnipeg Formation (Middle Ordovician),
Williston Basin" AAPG Bulletin, August, p. 1330.
Bolyard, D. W., 1965. "Stratigraphy and Petroleum Potential
of Lower Inyan Kara Group in Northeastern Wyoming, Southeastern
Montana, and Western South Dakota" AAPG Bulletin, p. 1574.
Bolyard, D. W. and Alexander A. McGregor, 1966.
"Stratigraphy and Petroleum Potential of Lower Cretaceous Inyan
Kara Group in Northeastern Wyoming, Southeastern Montana, and
Western South Dakota" in AAPG Bulletin, Oct. 1966, pp. 2221-2244
Brown, R. W., 1946 "Fossil Plants and Jurassic-Cretaceous
Boundary in Montana and Alberta" in AAPG Bulletin, pp. 238-249.
Burke, Randolph B., 1982. "Facies, Fabrics, and Porosity,
Duperow Formation (Upper Devonian) Billings Nose Area, Williston
Basin, North Dakota" in AAPG Bulletin, p. 554.
Clark, Thomas H., and Colin W. Stearn, 1960. The Geological
Evolution of North America, (New York: The Ronald Press).
Dean, Walter E., and Thomas D. Fouch, 1983. "Lacustrine
Environments" pp. 98-130, in Scholle, Peter A., Don G. Bebout
and Clyde H. Moore, Editors, 1983. Carbonate Depositional
Environments, AAPG Memoir 33, (Tulsa: Amer. Assoc. Petrol.
Geol.)
Dunn, C. E. 1974. "Upper Devonian Duperow Sedimentary Rocks
in SE Saskatchewan. Why no Oil Yet?" in AAPG Bulletin, May,
1974, p. 907.
Dunn, C. E., 1983 "Geology of the Middle Devonian Dawson Bay
Formation" in J. E. Christopher and J. Kaldi, editors, 4th
International Williston Basin Symposium. Special Publication No.
6, Saskatchewan Geological Society, pp. 75-88.
Ehrets., J. R. and Don L. Kissling, 1983. "Depositional and
Diagenetic Models for Devonian Birdbear (Nisku) Reservoirs, NE
Montana" in AAPG Bulletin, p. 1336.
Fischer, A. G., 1993, "Cyclostratigraphy of Cretaceous
Chalk-Marl Sequences" in Evolution of the Western Interior
Basin, (GAC Special Paper No. 39, 1993) pp. 263-295 cited in
Petroleum Abstracts, 35:12, March 25, 1995, p 1001.
Francis, David R., 1956. Jurassic Stratigraphy of the
Williston Basin Area, Report No. 18, Saskatchewan Department of
Mineral Resources.
Gerhard, Lee C., Anderson, Sidney B., and Fischer, David W.,
1990. "Petroleum Geology of the Williston Basin" in Morris
Leighton et al, Interior Cratonic Basins, AAPG Memoir 51 (Tulsa:
AAPG), pp. 507-559.
Guthrie, Gary E., 1985. "Stratigraphy and Depositional
Environment of Upper Mississippian Big Snowy Group, Bridger
Range Montana" in AAPG Bulletin, p. 850.
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#Post#: 111--------------------------------------------------
Re: GM/Great Flood Critique
By: Admin Date: February 5, 2017, 9:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike, thanks for the comments and links. 3 days ago I posted
this on the TB forum:
BASINS SUPPORT RAPID DEPOSITION
That is something Berthault's experiments apparently showed.
When tsunamis deposit strata they separate the strata according
to grain size etc. Since they are deposited simultaneously in a
megasequence they form curved strata in basins. The curves of
the strata nearly follow the curves of each basin surface,
except that each stratum is a bit thicker at the bottom than on
the sides, like this:
HTML http://www.fortunebay.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/michiganbasin-cross-big.jpg . If strata formed in continental shallow seas, they should ha
ve
formed at river deltas as sloped fans, like this
HTML http://www.scielo.cl/fbpe/img/andgeol/v36n1/fig05-10.jpg
and
HTML http://www.scielo.cl/fbpe/img/andgeol/v36n1/fig05-09.jpg
. Or if
frequent tremors or tides or something caused the sediments to
spread out across the floor of a shallow sea, the sediments
should go to the bottom as flat layers, like this
HTML http://images.slideplayer.com/5/1507022/slides/slide_12.jpg
.
- So I agree that the broad horizontal lateral extent of strata
support very large tsunamis as the cause of deposition. If
erosion into shallow seas were true, there should only be fan
shaped strata and they shouldn't be separated into individual
rock types, since there would not have been pure lime regions
being eroded for thousands of years followed by similar periods
of clay erosion and sand erosion. I think those are among the
strongest arguments against gradualism.
- Last night I posted this on the TB forum:
Igneous Origin of Salt
I just made a good find on salt. See the 20 min. video, PRIMARY
IGNEOUS ORIGIN OF SALT FORMATIONS, at
HTML http://youtube.com/watch?v=MfN0MIOnRNQ
. It's just in time to
answer most of the next bunch of claims against the Great Flood.
The host of the video also authored a good paper, which I posted
on my forum at
HTML http://funday.createaforum.com/1-10
.
- Mike, we're lucky to have critiques of the Great Flood posted
online. Those seem likely to be the reasons the NCGT members
support the conventional gradualist timeline. Of course,
radiometric dating methods are probably their main reason for
supporting it, but I think we have abundant evidence against it.
So I look forward to getting all the main pro and con arguments
listed coherently and organized into a good scientific format.
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2/4/17, mike@newgeology.us <mike@newgeology.us> wrote:
Subject: RE: Critique Questions
It is typical of anti-creationists and other propagandists to
throw up a flurry of arguments loaded with assertions to give
their bluster an "overwhelming" appearance. The certainty of
the claims in the list you posted is unfounded. For most,
either the conditions of deposition stated are not the only
possibilities, or not enough is understood about them. For
example, until recently shale and other mudstones, which
comprise over 60% of the geologic column, were thought to
require quiet environments to form. The 2009 reference I sent
you demonstrates that they can form in moving water as well
Schieber, J., and J. B. Southard (2009), Bedload transport of
mud by floccule ripples - Direct observation of ripple migration
processes and their implications, Geology, 37(6), 483-486,
doi:10.1130/G25319A.1. Salt beds in the geologic column are
extremely pure compared to evaporites being formed today, as
described here:
HTML http://www.icr.org/article/does-salt-come-from-evaporated-sea-water/ And how dolomite is formed, especially in depth, remains
unsolved. It is apparent that conditions today differ from
those in place when most of the geologic column was laid down.
The huge geographic extent of many strata and the dearth of
erosional interfaces suggests large scale, at least regional
catastrophic deposition mechanisms.
- Don't forget the bizarre uniformitarian explanation for many
deposits - rising and falling landmasses and sea levels
depositing the same material over the same unchanged areas over
millions of years. There is no indication of this happening
today outside of small local environments. Note that in Shock
Dynamics geology, all Cenozoic sedimentary strata formed
hundreds of years after the Noahic Flood during the SD event.
- Compression built virtually all mountain chains, and rapid
compression of continental crust, as in SD, would likely have
had a substantial global piezoelectric electromagnetic effect.
I don't see it being associated with radiation, though.
-----
Subject: Critique Questions
Date: Fri, February 03, 2017 10:20 pm
- I analyzed a long critique of the Great Flood and sorted it
into 12 claims, along with my questions for each claim about
what might be answers to them. I didn't number all of the
claims, because some are closely related. I posted them here:
HTML http://funday.createaforum.com/1-10/1-62/msg90/#msg90
- If you have answers to any of them, feel free to let me know.
Otherwise, I'll eventually try to find answers for them myself,
at least for the most important ones. I arranged the most
important ones first.
- Some of the claims refer to the impossibility of high amounts
of salt in sediments drying out quickly enough and of high
concentrations in the ocean being deadly for all life there. I
was thinking maybe there were more submarine brine lakes like
the one in the Gulf of Mexico, which got washed ashore in some
of the tsunamis.
- A claim about carbonates giving off too much heat is hard for
me to understand. Maybe you would understand it.
- I posted more material on my forum lately, like Walter Brown's
info about electrical effects, lineaments, radioactivity etc at
LK2. I found a map of lineaments online that seems pretty
detailed. The lines on it on the Atlantic coasts of Africa and
South America look like they could have formed when the
Madagascar strip connected to South America started peeling away
from Africa. I think there would have been really strong
electric currents under the continents as they slid apart and
they could have produced the radioactivity, some of which was
injected vertically under mountain ranges in granite intrusions
etc. There probably was a lot of supercritical water too, like
Brown thought, but not nearly as much. He claimed that it shot
into the upper atmosphere and came down in Siberia as rock ice,
which would have been cold enough to freeze mammoths to -150F.
#Post#: 269--------------------------------------------------
Re: GM/Great Flood Critique
By: Admin Date: January 7, 2020, 10:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Critique (from first post above)
HTML http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/agescience2.htm
Complete Geologic Column
HTML http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/basin3.gif
MAJOR WORLD BASINS:
AFRICA: BeniMellal (Morocco), Tunisian, Ghadames (Libya),
WesternDesert (Egypt); EURASIA: Adana+Iskenderun (Syria),
MoesianPlatform (Greece), Carpathian (E.Europe), Baltic,
Yazd-Kerman-Tabas (Iran), OmanInterior, Farah+Helmand
(Afghanistan), Jiuxi (NW.China), Yeniseiy-Khatanga (N.Siberia),
Tarim+Manhal-Subel+Tung-t'in-YuanShul+Szechwan E.China);
AUSTRALIA: Bonaparte (N.Australia); S.AMERICA: Bogata
(Colombia); N.AMERICA: TampicoEmbayment (E.Mexico), Williston
(NC.U.S.), BeaufortSea+Yukon-Porcupine (Yukon)
*****************************************************