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#Post#: 304--------------------------------------------------
COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 4, 2021, 10:08 pm
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(Mike F,) SEE OARD'S MAIN POINTS IN 2ND POST AT
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4TH POST: CEMENT:
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5TH POST: POST-FLOOD CATASTROPHE
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6TH POST: YOUNGER DRYAS
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7TH POST: SHOCK DYNAMICS DISCUSSION
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8TH POST: NO MOON
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60 TJ 17(3) 2003
Forum
__Comparing Flood models
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_3/j17_3_60-65.pdf
Robert W. Lawrence
_A recent issue of this journal contained an important exchange
on the significance of dinosaur footprints within strata
classified as Mesozoic.
_Garner et al.,1 in commenting on a paper by Woodmorappe,2
discuss the obvious difficulties of explaining these footprints
if they were deposited during the Flood. _Woodmorappe and Oard,3
in their reply, conclude that the alternative of these forming
after the Flood should be considered as dead and buried, once
and for all.
_One would expect an irrefutable case in order to dismiss an
alternative interpretation,
--so it is worthwhile examining the case made by Woodmorappe and
Oard to see if the alternative can indeed be dismissed as not
viable.
_In the reply of Woodmorappe and Oard, they argue that Garner et
al. have followed the error of Cuvier
and classify them as holding a neo-Cuvierist position.
_Woodmorappe and Oard claim that the neo-Cuvierist position
adopts an illusionary geologic column and ignores the complexity
of the Flood,
in assuming that dinosaurs would not have survived the first day
of the Flood.
_These are both debatable issues and do not provide sufficient
basis for rejecting an alternative view.
_We should consider these arguments before evaluating their
conclusions.
_First, it needs to be stated that Woodmorappe and Oard have not
shown, either in their reply or in any previous work,
that a logical conclusion of interpreting dinosaur footprints as
post-Flood is to exclude evidence for the biblical Flood
completely.
_There are alternative interpretations for recognizing Flood
deposits, but they are not logical consequences of how dinosaur
footprints are interpreted.
_To begin, we should consider the geologic column.
_A common process during geologic mapping is to produce a
representative column with both rock-types and fossils.
_Such columns have a degree of simplification and they tend to
include layers with restricted distribution.
_Similarly, the geologic column is the nomenclature for an
idealized composite representation of the observed fossil
succession.
_Nomenclature is not a basis for correlation.
_Any time significance needs to be interpreted on a sound
theoretical basis.
_The column is nothing more than a nomenclature for classifying
the relative stratigraphic position of fossil assemblages.
_It provides a basis for predicting what kinds of fossils may
occur above or below a certain fossiliferous layer and what
kinds of fossils will not be found.
_Even if aspects of the geologic column are artefacts of a
flawed methodology, there is an obvious pattern observed on
every continent.
_Throughout the world there are strata with extinct marine
fossils, such as trilobites and graptolites,
overlain by strata with both marine and terrestrial fossils,
including plant remains.
_Within the latter there is also a pattern of extinct
terrestrial vertebrates and ammonites,
followed by mammals and other vertebrates that are increasingly
similar to modern forms and ecosystems.
_One does not need to consider the column to be ‘valid’ in order
to describe the obvious pattern.
_Woodmorappe and Oard consider that neo-Cuvierists adopt a form
of speeded-up uniformitarianism.
_This may be so, but it does not logically follow that this
approach is flawed.
_While it is the case that uniformitarian assumptions limit
interpretation to exclude a biblical timescale;
an assumption that all strata classified as Mesozoic and
Tertiary must be interpreted as Flood deposits is equally
limiting.
_Each interpretation needs to be assessed on its merits.
_It is not appropriate to assume that secular scholars are
always wrong.
_The second issue discussed by Woodmorappe and Oard is the
complexity of the Flood.
_Two possible sources of information about the Flood are the
Bible and strata deposited in the Flood.
_The Bible says that Noah’s Ark was floated during the
increasing waters that resulted from 40 days and nights of rain
and the breaking up of the fountains of the deep.
_The waters prevailed for five months (150 days) until the Ark
was grounded and no land was seen from the Ark for more than a
further two months,
while the water level continued to decrease.
_The requirement of areas of emergence of land during the Flood
to explain dinosaur footprints
is not definitely excluded in the biblical testimony but it is
certainly not evident or expected.
_The other source of information is geological observation.
_Assuming that all of the so-called Phanerozoic strata were
deposited before the end of the first 150 days of the Flood,
a thickness of 15 km of sediments gives an average of 100 m of
sedimentation per day.4
_Enormous erosion rates adjacent to the early Flood geosynclines
would have been involved.
_Indeed, all air-breathing and land-dwelling animals would have
been destroyed in a short period of such activity.
_Thus, the Bible and the geology have the same testimony.
_Nothing could have survived the deposition, deformation and
exhumation of the geosynclines,
which are hundreds of kilometres wide and comprise a significant
proportion of the continental crust.
_Oard5 admits that dinosaur fossils overlie these geosynclines.
_Thus, the opinion that this is an insurmountable problem for
those who attribute dinosaur fossils to the Flood is well
justified.
_In their conclusion, Woodmorappe and Oard imply that there is
inconsistency in
having dinosaur fossils restricted to the earlier post-Flood
deposits before the deposition of mammal fossils.
_Robinson6 has already explained this within a colonization
model; reptiles and birds multiplied more rapidly after the
Flood than mammals.
_However, this succession of mammals following dinosaurs is more
of a problem for the model of Woodmorappe and Oard.
_The mammals would have had to survive through all of the time
of geosyncline formation and the deposition of dinosaur
footprints
and then to continue being buried until the last moments of the
Flood7 in a distribution that matches modern patterns.
_Small aquatic creatures, with fossils in strata classified as
Tertiary, such as the platypus in the Lake Eyre Basin of central
Australia,
and extinct beavers buried within their burrows in Nebraska,8
would have been some of the first to be overcome
with the raging torrents of the Flood, not the last.
_The so-called fatal problem for neo-Cuvierists, according to
Woodmorappe and Oard, is the large volumes of post-Flood
sediment.
_If strata classified as Mesozoic and Tertiary were deposited
after the Flood, there could have been approximately 5 km of
sediments deposited in about 200 years.
_This represents an overall average of 25 m per year.
_This is conceivable during a period of high rainfall preceding
duricrust formation.
_This is much less than the deposition rate of 100 m per day
proposed by Woodmorappe and Oard for the Flood.
_Holt9,10 has suggested that it would be too hazardous to live
with such conditions.
_However, the rate throughout much of the post-Flood period
could have been much less,
as there is likely to have been a period of rapid erosion of
unconsolidated Flood deposits early in this period.
_There could also have been single local catastrophic events.
_A formation of 200 m of sandstone could have been deposited in
a few days.
_This is a major issue, but there is potential for developing an
understanding within this paradigm.
_Woodmorappe and Oard have not presented an irrefutable case for
rejecting any post-Flood dinosaur tracks and egg-laying.
_They might do well to explain how they conceive of dinosaurs
surviving the preceding geosynclinal events
and how fossils of mammals and plants with increasing modern
affinities came to be preserved in overlying and younger layers
later, during the Flood.
_References
1. Garner, P.A., Garton, M., Johnson, R.H., Robinson S.J. and
Tyler D.J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood, TJ
17(1):54–57, 2003.
2. Woodmorappe, J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the
Flood, TJ 16(2):10–12, 2002.
3. Woodmorappe, J. and Oard, M., Reply to Garner et al.,
Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood, TJ 17(1):57–59,
2003.
4. While 15 km may be an overestimate in some cases, the period
of 150 days is also likely to be an overestimate. Thus, this
estimated depositional rate is of the correct order of
magnitude.
5. Oard, M.J., Watery catastrophe deduced from huge Ceratopsian
dinosaur graveyard, TJ 16(2):3–4, 2002.
6. Robinson, S.J., Can Flood geology explain the fossil record?
TJ 10(1):32–69, 1996.
7. Johnston, R.H., The Flood/post-Flood Boundary, TJ
11(2):162–165, 1997.
8. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in the Flood: A Response, TJ
12(1):69–86, 1998; see page 81.
9. Holt, R.D., Evidence for a Late Cainozoic Flood/post-Flood
boundary, TJ 10(1):128–167, 1996.
10. Holt, R.D., The Flood/post-Flood boundary, TJ 11(3):308–314,
1997.
__Michael J. Oard replies:
Although creationist geologists are making good progress on a
number of fronts, the issue of dinosaur eggs and tracks
continues to cause consternation.1–4
Much of the problem presupposes that we know enough about the
Flood and pre-Flood world to make statements that certain events
cannot happen.
I also see an impatience to come up with answers to the many
geological questions related to the Flood.
There are still many unknowns in geology and paleontology.
It is better to gather geological data first and then,
hopefully, a pattern will emerge,
or at least we can prepare the way for the next generation of
creation geologists to provide answers for tough questions.
I also see too much reliance on uniformitarian interpretations
without checking into them thoroughly.5
Uniformitarian interpretations derive from a radically different
worldview that taints Earth history.
Some uniformitarian interpretation may be correct while others
are likely to be incorrect;
we need to spend more time checking into both the
interpretations and the raw data.
(Sometimes, even the raw data is biased in geology and
paleontology because uniformitarian geologists do not always
report all observations,
and they may not even see evidence contrary to their
presuppositions.)
__The danger of diminishing the Flood
Robert Lawrence brings up many points related to the issue of
dinosaur tracks and eggs, which are contentious.
The first point is: How does placing the late Paleozoic through
to the Cenozoic in the post-Flood period relate to the Flood?
Lawrence contends that Woodmorappe and I have not demonstrated
that a mid to late Paleozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary does away
with the Flood completely.
We have never said that such a position did away with the Flood,
but that such a boundary diminishes the significance of the
Flood,
since a large proportion of sedimentary rocks are left to vague
post-Flood catastrophic mechanisms.
This opens up the possibility of further relegating the Flood to
a lower position in the geological column,
if advocates of this position discover some feature lower in the
column that they deem takes too much time.
British creationists will be aware that Steven Robinson has
recently relegated the Flood/post-Flood boundary from the late
Paleozoic
to somewhere in the Precambrian, based on a strict reading of
the geological column, a disputable exegesis of some parts of
Genesis, and Phanerozoic events
that supposedly take too much time:
‘Such features falsify all attempts to identify the Flood with
any part of the Phanerozoic — the fossil record after the
Precambrian.’6
This deduction presupposed a great deal of knowledge of the
Flood. To accommodate all this postFlood catastrophism,
whatever it is,
he relegates the date of creation to about 19,000 years ago.7
And, apart from the dubious success of accommodating the
apparent postFlood catastrophism,
the serious entertainment of such a date for creation bloats the
biblical chronologies to an extreme extent.
Such a diminished significance for the Flood can lead to total
rejection.
This happened in the time of Baron Cuvier. William Buckland, who
gave up on the Flood when the ‘diluvium’ turned out to be
glacial,
is the most famous example of one who rejected the Flood
altogether.
Why not instead, examine the raw data related to these
geological problems and then see if there are reasonable
solutions within the Flood,
which is supported by the big picture of geology and
paleontology?
In examining this raw data, one cannot rely just on the
uniformitarian literature;
we must also go out into the field and examine the rocks and
fossils for ourselves.
I have repeatedly found reasonable solutions within the standard
Flood model by this approach.
#Post#: 305--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 4, 2021, 10:42 pm
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__Comparing Flood models (CONTINUED from above:
HTML http://funday.createaforum.com/1-10/1-145/msg304/#msg304
)
[SHEET STRATA]
_The big picture includes: the sheet nature of strata sometimes
spread over a huge lateral extent.
_When you compare the type of erosion, transportation and
deposition of sediments today with what we see in the
sedimentary rocks, there is a huge difference. _Sedimentary
rocks of all ages are predominantly sheets, unlike today when
sediments are commonly unlithified and two-dimensional.
_This includes the huge vertical and spatial extent of the rocks
labelled as Precambrian, Paleozoic and Mesozoic.
[EVEN CENOZOIC]
_Even the Cenozoic forms large sheets out in the plains of
eastern Montana, the Dakotas, and adjacent areas.
_The Cenozoic valley and basin fills in the Rocky Mountains are
generally sheet-like over hundreds of square kilometres.
_In other words, the deposition was unlike today’s and fits in
with the energy and depositional pattern expected in a Flood
--that is more violent at the beginning and wanes with time,
--as ‘The mountains rose; the valleys sank down’ (Psalm 104:8a)
to drain the floodwaters.
[FOSSILS]
_The sedimentary rocks also contain billions of fossils.
_Considering that fossilization is a very exceptional process in
the modern world, all these fossils should point to the Flood.
_The stratification and fossils, plus much more information, are
why we believe the geological evidence strongly indicates a late
Cenozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary.
[DINOSAUR TRACKS & EGGS]
_Such a boundary would automatically place the dinosaur tracks
and eggs within the Flood,
--and the fact that the tracks and eggs were made by living
animals further constrains the time as the early Flood.
_Those who advocate post-Flood catastrophism need to come up
with viable mechanisms to account for
--the sheet nature and sediments with billions of fossils and
the other details of the rock record.
__How does the geological column relate?
_Lawrence next brings up how the geological column relates to
the Flood.
_I would agree that there is a pattern, as Lawrence states, but
the exact pattern has not been determined yet.
_Evolutionists are always finding fossil surprises, such as
‘living fossils’,
--or earlier than previously identified occurences of fossils in
their geological timescale,8 which require manipulation of the
data.
[FOSSIL PATTERN EXPLANATIONS]
_Whatever the exact fossil pattern, there are at least two
viable hypotheses to explain the order within the Flood:
--ecological zonation and Woodmorappe’s TAB concept.
_There are likely other mechanisms that no-one has yet
considered.
_Those who relegate the Flood/post-Flood boundary to the middle
or late Paleozoic
--seem to take the geological column as an absolute sequence of
the Flood and post-Flood period.
_I believe we need a thorough evaluation of the geological
column.
_There are many aspects to the geological column that must be
substantiated, and there seems to be
--much flawed logic and procedures in the way uniformitarian
scientists developed the column and continue to uphold it as a
global sequence.5
_Radiometric dates are simply fit to the column, so they are of
no help.
_In my geological travels, mostly in the northwest of the USA, I
see evidence for a general order of the fossils in places, and
exceptions in other places.
_For instance, the mountains of Montana are commonly Precambrian
or Paleozoic;
--while the valley and basin fills, which came later, are
commonly late Mesozoic and Cenozoic.
_This represents a general order to the fossils that is similar
to the uniformitarian order.
_On the plains, the localities of dinosaurs and mammals are
widely scattered,
--and so it is difficult to know whether the difference in
fossils is really vertical or horizontal or both.
[DINOSAURS & MAMMALS TOGETHER]
_In one location in northeast Montana there are Paleocene
dinosaurs mixed with ungulates.9
_Of course, this and other locations of Paleocene dinosaurs are
hotly disputed by evolutionists,
--indicating the circular reasoning that is part of the fossil
order making up the geological column.
_As stated by Woodmorappe and Oard,2 those who advocate a
Flood/post-Flood boundary in the mid to late Paleozoic,
--must explain the supposed order in the geological column after
the Flood.
_Lawrence apparently believes Robinson10 has solved the problem
by advocating differential spreading or colonization,
--in other words the reptiles and birds multiplied faster than
the mammals.
[EXPLAIN FOSSIL ORDER IN DETAIL]
_But, the order must be explained in detail, including the order
of microorganisms and plants,
--since those who advocate a Paleozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary
also believe in an absolute geological column.
_Besides, would reptiles spread faster than rats and rabbits?
_And why would dinosaurs want to migrate that fast when they
have lots of mammal meals available?
[EXPLAIN MARINE FOSSILS]
_And this does not even touch marine fossils.
_For instance, how are Cretaceous ammonites supposed to avoid
admixture with Tertiary marine fauna during some vague
post-Flood migration?
_Surely, the post-Flood scenario should result in a generally
random order of the fossils,
--since postulated post-Flood catastrophism should bury all
organisms in a local or regional area.
_Lawrence states that the succession of mammals following
dinosaurs is more of a problem for Woodmorappe and myself.
_I fail to see this, since there are mechanisms during the Flood
that can cause fossil order,
--but no workable mechanism, as far as I know, in the model of
post-Flood catastrophism.
[POSTPONE]
_The survival of mammals, as well as dinosaurs, during the
initial onslaught of the Flood will be addressed later.
[ANIMAL BURIAL PATTERN]
_Lawrence goes on to state in that same paragraph that the
mammals would have to be buried in the last moments of the
Flood.
_This is assuming a linear sequence of the geological column
compressed into the Flood.
_Woodmorappe and I question such linearity;
--we expect that the early Flood would generate more sediment
and bury the land animals.
_The Bible says that all air-breathing animals that lived on
land perished by Day 150.
_So all the mammals would have been dead and would generally be
deposited in early Flood sediments.
[MOUNTAIN RANGES EMERGED FIRST?]
_This makes the rock record compressed, especially in areas of
the continent that likely emerged first,
--such as near the continental divide in western North America.
_(One must be careful in that the above scenario does not work
with micro-organisms,
--and that some of these mammals could have been floating for
awhile and been deposited in the Recessional Stage of the
Flood.)
_This is why I can make a case that the ‘Cenozoic’ can be early
Flood, late Flood and post-Flood, depending upon the location.11
[MAMMALS BURIED BY FLOOD]
_‘Cenozoic’ sediments with mammals’ tracks and the giant beavers
in corkscrew-shaped burrows in Nebraska can be explained by
--early Flood sediments that were deeply buried and subsequently
exposed by late Flood erosion, as I have discussed before.12
_(I do not know enough about platypus distribution in Australia
to comment.)
__Numerous difficulties with ‘post-Flood catastrophism’
_Those who believe that the Flood/post-Flood boundary is in the
middle or late Paleozoic, or the K/T for that matter,
--have copious, severe problems explaining geological and
paleontological features without the Flood.
_They resort to what is called post-Flood catastrophism, about
which I have heard or read very little.
_I would at least like to read some speculations on the nature
of these mechanisms.
[POST-FLOOD CATASTROPHISTS, EXPLAIN THESE]
_Advocates of such Flood/post-Flood boundaries need to come up
with viable post-Flood catastrophic mechanisms
--for huge erosion, transportation, and sheet deposition,
sometimes over tens of thousands of square kilometres.
_They need to come up with viable tectonic models plus
explanations for [in]numerable other difficulties.
_Some of these difficulties, among very many, are:
_1) Where is the record of dinosaurs, mammals and other
organisms from the supposed record of the Flood in the early
Paleozoic and Precambrian?
_2) How is the Mesozoic and Cenozoic order of the geological
column to be explained as a worldwide post-Flood sequence?
_3) How are huge early Cenozoic coal seams
--that are up to 100 km long, 40 km wide, and 61 m thick, of
nearly pure coal in the Powder River Basin of southeast Montana
and northeast Wyoming
--to be explained by post-Flood processes?13
_4) How are Cenozoic planation surfaces developed?
_5) How are pediments formed?
_6) How are water and wind gaps developed?
_7) How can man and beast survive the volcanic winter from all
the post-Paleozoic volcanism?
_8) How would man and beast survive the devastation of large
meteorite impacts?
_9) Where does the energy for erosion and transport come from
after the Flood?
_10) What mechanism erodes the Rocky Mountains of western
Montana and northern/central Idaho
--and lays down well-rounded quartzites from the Pacific coast
to western North Dakota, sometimes at current speeds over 30
m/sec?14
_Some of these quartzites weigh up to 200 kg and are found on
mountain tops,
--such as the northern Teton Mountains of northwest Wyoming,
--the Gravelly Range of southwest Montana,
--and the Wallowa Mountains of northeast Oregon.15
[A more recent Oard article says sediments were carried from
east to west in N. America]
_All this occurred in the Cenozoic of geological time.
[_The extensive sheet-like deposits in the Grand Canyon, and
around the world, support the standard Flood model ‘big picture’
--that these deposits are a result of the world-wide Flood of
Noah.]
[& EXPLAIN THIS]
_Dinosaur tracks and eggs
--that are found near where I live
--are on top of thousands of metres of sedimentary rocks from
the Flood, as all participants in the dispute recognize.
_But, there has also been at least 300 m, and possibly more than
1,000 m, of erosion of these areas to expose the dinosaur eggs,
tracks and bonebeds.
_What post-Flood mechanism would lay down many hundreds of
metres of Mesozoic and Cenozoic sediments over tens of thousands
of square kilometres,
--erode the strata as a sheet, and end with more channellized
erosion with no trace of the eroded material downstream?
_The Flood is the mechanism that is able to accomplish all this
work.
_Based on the geology of the Rocky Mountains and the adjacent
High Plains, and from Scripture,
--the logical place to place dinosaur tracks and eggs is early
in the Flood, during the first 150 days
--when all air-breathing animals that had lived on land died
(except those in the Ark of course).
_The erosion of the area down to the level of observed tracks
and eggs fits in neatly with the Recessional Stage of the Flood,
--thus constraining the tracks and eggs to be from the
Inundatory Stage.16
_Any postulated post-Flood mechanism that can accomplish all
this geological activity would have to be on par with the Flood
itself.
_I do not find the Flood explanation of the Mesozoic and
Cenozoic limiting but rather straightforward,
--while I find that the post-Flood explanation of these strata
and fossils adds many times more problems than it purports to
solve.
_Lawrence disputes Holt’s contention that the post-Flood period
would be too hazardous for man.17
_Not to mention other parts of the world, the Middle East
underwent much tectonics and sedimentation during the Mesozoic
and Cenozoic.17,18
_I would say there is a severe problem of survivability.
__The logic of emerged Flood sediments early in the Flood
_It is true, as Lawrence states, that areas of emerged land are
not excluded in the biblical testimony,
_but to state that ‘… it is certainly not evident or expected’
is to not think of the many processes
--that can cause emerged Flood sediments early in the Flood.
_Furthermore, Lawrence and others do not seem to have thought
much about the unusual features of tracks and eggs
--that make a natural environment suspicious,
--such as predominantly straight trackways,
--tracks only on bedding planes,
--and few tracks of babies or young juveniles,
--unlike today.19,20
[5 CAUSES OF FLOOD SEDIMENTS]
_I will discuss some of the mechanisms that would cause emerged
Flood sediments.
_After a few thousand metres or so of sediment is rapidly
deposited in a ‘geosyncline’,
--sea level would shallow greatly because the crustal trough is
being filled up.
_Then there are at least five viable mechanisms that would
result in fluctuating sea level that can result in emerged
sediments.
_One mechanism is twice-daily tides.
_These tides can be substantial on a globally or nearly globally
flooded Earth due to a lack of continental barriers and/or
resonance.21,22
_The height of these tides should be quite variable spatially
due to the effects of the remaining uninundated land and
sea-bottom topography.
_A second mechanism is multiple tectonics, both near and far,
that will cause all kinds of tsunamis and waves.
_Just this mechanism alone would cause massive sea-level
oscillations.
_A third mechanism is general uplift of the area of exposed
Flood sediments due to conditions in the lower crust or mantle,
--such as a heating event or change of mineral phase in the
mantle.
_Fourth, meteorite bombardment in the ocean should result in
huge tsunamis, which would spread out and decrease in energy
with distance.
_Fifth, the dynamics of Flood currents results in sheet flows
snaking over shallow land masses at high speed,
--just like the jet stream in the atmosphere.23
_These modelled currents can accelerate from rest up to about 80
m/sec, in about 40 days with the pattern of ridges and troughs
moving very slowly.
_The most relevant feature, for this discussion, is that in the
middle of the trough sea level can fall as much as 1,000 m,
resulting in a large area
of exposed land that can remain for tens of days.
_These are not ad hoc mechanisms but reasonable deductions
within a global Flood.
__Flood and post-Flood deposition
_Robert Lawrence’s estimate of the amount of sediment laid down
in the first 150 days is about 100 m/day.
_He is an order of magnitude too high.
_During the Flood some areas would have received high rates of
sedimentation, but, on average, the depositional rates will be
about 10m/day
--based on an average continental thickness of 1,500 m.
_Although I would agree that most of the sediment was laid down
during the first 150 days, especially at the beginning,
--more sediment would have been added from copious volcanic
emissions during the Recessional Stage.
_So, this would put the estimate for the first 150 days
somewhere around 8 m/day.
_I would also add that the sediments laid down early in the
Flood ‘geosynclines’ did not necessarily erode from the edge,
--but could have come from quite a long distance.
_We just don’t know.
_The Recessional Stage would generally erode the top of the
sediment column from the highest areas and redeposit the
material mostly along the continental margins.
_Regardless of the average deposition rate, Lawrence concludes
that
--the geological activity very early in the Flood would have
been too much for the air-breathing land dwellers.
_The question seems to come up as to where the dinosaurs and
mammals were located while the Paleozoic sediments were being
deposited on the continents.
_All these deductions presuppose that we know the pre-Flood
geography, topography and bathymetry.
_We do not know any of these geomorphological features.
_Moreover, the addition of an average of about 1,500 m of
sediments on the continents and continental margins, plus great
tectonics,
--has catastrophically disrupted and changed the pre-Flood
world.
_So, questions like ‘Where were the dinosaurs and mammals early
in the catastrophe?’ assume that
--we know not only the pre-Flood geomorphology, but also the
precise events of the Flood.
_They also assume that the globe was totally flooded soon after
the start.
_For all we know, much of the current ocean basins could have
been pre-Flood land while the current continents were pre-Flood
oceans.
_If Mount Everest can rise more than 9,000 m out of the
floodwaters, portions of the pre-Flood continents
--could have sunk thousands of metres and now be covered with
sea water, in spite of the current observations
--of a felsic upper continental crust, a mafic ocean crust, and
general isostatic balance.
_So, the dinosaurs and mammals could have been still on these
pre-Flood continents while the ‘geosynclines’ were filling up.
_A further rise in the relative level of the sea could have
chased them off into the water
--in which strong Flood currents swept them up on the shores of
newly exposed Flood sediments.
_Some drowned, forming bonebeds along the shore, while some
lived to make tracks and lay eggs before the exposed Flood
sediments were finally covered by water.
_This is just one viable scenario.
_On the other hand, the amount of sediment laid down in the
post-Flood period, if the Mesozoic and Cenozoic were post-Flood,
--is far greater than that observed in depositional areas today.
_Lawrence’s average of 25 m/yr for 200 years is much too high,
but nonetheless, it would still be large.
_Because of all this post-Flood activity, including deposition,
Robinson is forced to postulate a post-Flood period of around
15,000 years,7
--which is really a Scriptural and archaeological stretch.
#Post#: 306--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 4, 2021, 10:44 pm
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__Acknowledgment
I thank John Woodmorappe for reading the first draft of the
manuscript and suggesting improvements.
I appreciate the work of AiG for correcting my English and
making it more readable.
__References
1. Garner, P.A., Garton, M., Johnston, R.H., Robinson, S.J. and
Tyler, D.J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood. TJ
17(1):54–57, 2003.
2. Woodmorappe, J. and Oard, M.J., John Woodmorappe and Michael
Oard reply, TJ 17(1):57–59, 2003.
3. Lain, E.C. and Gentet, R.E., Dinosaur eggs, nests and tracks:
evidence for or against the Noachian Deluge? CRSQ 40(2):117–118,
2003.
4. Oard, M.J., Could dinosaurs make tracks and lay eggs early in
the Flood? CRSQ 40(2):119–123, 2003.
5. Reed, J.K. and Froede, Jr., C.R., The uniformitarian
stratigraphic column—shortcut or pitfall for creation geology?
CRSQ 40(2):90–98, 2003.
6. Robinson, S.J., The then world with water having been deluged
perished, Origins—The Journal of the Biblical Creation Society
29:15, 2000.
7. Robinson, S.J., Genealogy is not chronology, Origins—The
Journal of the Biblical Creation Society 26:15–21, 1999.
8. Oard, M.J., Evolution pushed further into the past, TJ
10(2):171–172,1996.
9. Oard, M.J., The extinction of the dinosaurs, TJ 11(2), p.
148, 1997.
10. Robinson, S.J., Can Flood geology explain the fossil record?
TJ 10(1):32–69, 1996.
11. Oard, M.J., Vertical tectonics and the drainage of
floodwater: a model for the middle and late diluvian period,
Part II, CRSQ 38(2):79–95, 2001. See pp. 89, 90.
12. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in the Flood: a response, TJ
12(1):69–86, 1998; see pp. 79–81.
13. Oard, M.J., Where is the Flood/post-Flood boundary in the
rock record? TJ 10(2):258–278; see pp. 266–267.
14. Klevberg, P. and Oard, M.J., Paleohydrology of the Cypress
Hills Formation and Flaxville Gravel; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.),
Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on
Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp.
361–378, 1994.
15. Oard, Ref. 13, pp. 258–278.
16. Walker, T., A Biblical geological model; in: Walsh, R.E.
(Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International Conference on
Creationism, Christian Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp.
581–592, 1994.
17. Holt, R.D., Evidence for a Late Cainozoic Flood/post-Flood
boundary, TJ 10(1):128–167, 1996.
18. Woodmorappe, J., The feasible same-site reappearance of the
TigrisEuphrates River system after the global Flood, CRSQ
39(2):106–116, 2002; see Figure 4, p. 110.
19. Oard, Ref. 9, pp. 144–147.
20. Oard, M.J., In the footsteps of giants, Creation
25(2):10–12, 2003.
21. Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., Resonance and sedimentary
layering in the context of a global Flood; in: Walsh, R.E. and
Brooks, C.L. (Eds.), Proceedings of the Second International
Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship,
Pittsburgh, pp 53–63, 1990.
22. Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., Toward an understanding of the
tidal fluid mechanics associated with the Genesis Flood; in:
Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International
Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship,
Pittsburgh, pp. 151–167, 1994.
23. Barnette, D.W. and Baumgardner, J.R., Patterns of ocean
circulation over the continents during Noah’s Flood; in: Walsh,
R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International Conference on
Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 77–86,
1994.
#Post#: 307--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 5, 2021, 1:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
__CEMENT
_Flood processes into the late Cenozoic: part 2 — sedimentary
rock evidence
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j30_2/j30_2_67-75.pdf
...to the extent of ____cement growth, the type of mineral doing
the ____cementation, the availability of ____cementing agents,
and other variables. Time is only one of the many ...
_Volcanic Ash Turns to Stone in Months
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/volcanic-ash-turns-to-stone-in-months
...Scientists have already discovered rapidly-forming natural
____cement in other places. A company called CarbFix has been
working with the ...
_Flood Explains 'Worldwide Pattern' in Ancient Rock
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/flood-explains-worldwide-pattern-ancient
...of soft-bodied organisms in sediments" and then hardening of
the sediment very soon afterward under a layer of calcium
carbonate "____cement.
_Ute Pass Fault: Sand Injectites and Rapid Deformation Fit the
Flood
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/ute-pass-fault-sand-injectites-rapid
...Hematite ____cement is abundant and imparts a red or purple
coloration to the injectites. Among investigators of these sand
injectites there is ...
_Soft-Sediment Deformation: Recent Flood Evidence
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/soft-sediment-deformation-recent-flood
...As illustrated in the accompanying sketch and photograph,
although these layers were bent excessively, there is no
evidence of broken ____cement ...
_The Rock Walls of Rockwall County
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/rock-walls-rockwall-county
...But how long does it take for sand to harden? Not long at
all, if the conditions are right, and particularly if a
____cement is present to bind the grains ...
_Is There Geological Evidence for the Young Earth?
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/there-geological-evidence-for-young-earth
...But it only takes a few hundred years at best for sandy
sediments to turn to sandstone in the presence of high
overburden pressure and adequate ____cement.
_Water Activity on Mars: Landscapes and Sedimentary Strata
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/water-activity-mars-landscapes-sedimentary-strata
...These include early pore-filling ____cement leading to
primary lithification, post-concretion ____cement resulting from
recrystallization and new growth, ...
_Tight Folds and Clastic Dikes as Evidence for Rapid Deposition
Deformation
HTML https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Tight-Fold-and-Clastic-Dikes-Rapid-Deposition-Deformation.pdf
...____cements, and evolutionists would predict that thick
strata sequences were deformed when the strata were in a
lithified, brittle, or elastic condition. Specific types.
_Rapid rock
HTML https://creation.com/rapid-rock
...In natural rocks, many minerals can ____cement the grains
together. Common ____cements include calcite, quartz, or
minerals of iron. Different ____cements produce rocks with ...
_An Experiment on the Erosion Rates of Rocks
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j11_3/j11_3_335-343.pdf
...____cement mixer on eight groups of rock samples: three types
of granites, a hard metasediment, limestone, ironstone, scoria
and sandstone. INTRODUCTION.
_Speedy stone from sand to rock
HTML https://creation.com/Speedy-stone-from-sand-to-rock
...The Dutch have been impressed by the capability of the
bacteria to ____cement the sand samples — hard.4. A major
practical application for the bio____cementation ...
_Sand to rock
HTML https://creation.com/sand-to-rock
...environment, it generates binding calcite ____cement (calcium
carbonate) ... of bacteria to convert sand into stone,
explained, “Cement is currently ...
_Sedimentary Heavitree Quartzite
HTML https://creation.com/sedimentary-heavitree-quartzite
...This formation is composed mostly of quartz sand, with white
and tan grains ____cemented into very hard rock by silica
____cement. Where the Heavitree Quartzite is ...
_Fossilized dinosaur retains its shape
HTML https://creation.com/fossilized-dinosaur-retains-its-shape
...The fossil was found encased in a siderite concretion which
occurs when minerals cause sediment to harden (like ____cement)
around organic ...
_Hasty Concretion Formation
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/hasty-concretion-formation
...They are spherical carbonate formations composed of mineral
____cement. Concretions are found near and far, from Western
Kazakhstan to ...
_Moeraki boulders new zealand
HTML https://creation.com/moeraki-boulders-new-zealand
...The boulders are spectacular examples of concretions, which
form in a deposit of mud or sand when minerals from the
groundwater ____cement ...
_Made in His Image: Bone, An Engineering Marvel
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/4751
...The bone's equivalent of the ____cement/aggregate part of
concrete is composed of apatite. Apatite is a medium-hard
mineral with properties similar ...
_Worldwide Catastrophic Evidence Is Everywhere
HTML https://www.icr.org/worldwide-flood/
...Concretions are remarkable geological curiosities. They are
spherical carbonate formations composed of mineral ____cement.
Concretions are found near and far, ...
_Arches National Park: Sculptures from the Flood
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/arches-national-park-sculptures-from-the-flood/
...And where do we see erosion carving parallel fins? Yes,
natural ____cements hold some sand grains together in sandstone,
but these can form fast ...
_Arches National Park
HTML https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af2102.pdf
...by a natural ____cement. This mortar is dissolved by water
trickling down the surface of the rock. Sand grains are
loosened, and slowly the wall ...
_Stunning New Evidence of a Higher Ancient Sea Level
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/4542/
...Olson, whose research appears in the journal Quaternary
Science Reviews, found “cobbles and marine sediments,” along
with “rim ____cements.
_Rapidly Forming Oil Supports Flood Time Frame
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/rapidly-forming-oil-supports-flood
...The Hebrew word for asphalt is chemar, which is sometimes
translated as bitumen, ____cement, or slime. So here, unlike the
use of the Hebrew ...
_SUBMARINE FLOW AND SLIDE DEPOSITS ...
HTML https://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_rs/
...Debris flows were generated when clasts from underlying
formations were swept up into a thick, rapidly flowing slurry of
sands and carbonaceous ____cement which ...
_The Whale Fossil in Diatomite, Lompoc, California
HTML https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/The-Whale-Fossil-in-Diatomite-Lompoc-California.pdf
...with a plastic ____cement, which hardened, and covered and
reinforced with bandages of plaster and burlap. The skull was
never transported to the museum, but ...
_Ancient Roman concrete
HTML https://creation.com/ancient-roman-concrete
...Modern ____cement in constant contact with the sea eventually
weakens, and the steel reinforcing inside then rusts as salty
water travels into cracks in the structure .
_Message in a bottle
HTML https://creation.com/message-in-a-bottle
...But why should it be amazing that minerals precipitated from
seawater could ____cement all these things together into solid
rock? After all, the wreck had been on the ...
_The Cal Orcko ('Lime Hill') dinosaur trackways
HTML https://creation.com/cal-orcko-dino-tracks
...In 1994, Bolivian workers quarrying high-grade limestone for
____cement reached a layer with too much quartz, a hard mineral,
so they left it alone.1 As quarrying ...
_Rapid stalactites
HTML https://creation.com/rapid-stalactites
...Like the Lincoln Memorial, the jenolan structures contain
____cement-mortar which is highly permeable, allowing these
formations to develop rapidly. The resultant ...
_Candles turned to stone
HTML https://creation.com/candles-turned-to-stone
...of pulverized rock hardens quickly, and experiments show that
certain bacteria can ____cement sand into hard rock.2 All of
this makes sense in the light of the true, ...
_Toy car rocks million-year belief
HTML https://creation.com/toy-car-rocks-million-year-belief
...Sandstone is just grains of sand held together by ____cement
— in this case by the mineral called calcium carbonate (CaCO3).
When you stroll along the beach you ...
#Post#: 308--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 5, 2021, 1:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
POST-FLOOD CATASTROPHE
_Noahs Flood the big picture
HTML https://creation.com/noahs-flood-the-big-picture
...The Lake Missoula flood was a ____post-Flood catastrophe that
demonstrates some of the effects of geological catastrophe. A
number of geologists ...
_Where is the Flood/post-Flood Boundary in the Rock Record?
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_2/j10_2_258-278.pdf
...would be a ____post-Flood catastrophe rivalling the Genesis.
Flood. In this scenario, it could easily be asserted that the
waters of the Genesis Flood prevailed for tens ...
_Post-Flood boundary (Disagreements)
HTML https://creation.com/disagreements-on-the-post-flood-boundary
...It seems most reasonable to approach the issue by analyzing
the scale of any given formation, while considering
____post-flood catastrophe (such ...
_Flood models flat earthers
HTML https://creation.com/flood-models-flat-earthers
...because it requires too much ____post-Flood catastrophe to
explain the enormous volumes of sediment deposited in the
Mesozoic and Cenozoic.
_'Unfossilized' Alaskan dinosaur bones?
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19_3/j19_3_66-72.pdf
...as tracks and bonebeds, there are many indications of unusual
activity that one would not expect in the uniformitarian or
____post-Flood catastrophe models.19.
_Late Cenozoic flood boundary
HTML https://creation.com/late-cenozoic-flood-boundary
...Absent a ____post-Flood catastrophe of regional extent and
great intensity, it is difficult to explain the uplift, erosion,
transport, deposition, and late ...
_The Black Sea flood
HTML https://creation.com/the-black-sea-flood
...The evidence is consistent with a local ____post-Flood
catastrophe around 1650 BC at the close of the Ice Age. Lately
it seems the scientific world has developed a ...
_Coal: memorial to the Flood
HTML https://creation.com/coal-memorial-to-the-flood
...However, the trees did not grow in the swamp, but were
carried there by a (____post-Flood) catastrophe at the end of
the Ice Age; www.insights.co.nz, posted on 4 ...
_The Black Sea flood: definitely not the Flood of Noah
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j14_1/j14_1_40-44.pdf
...account of which is faithfully recorded in the Bible. Rather
than Noah's Flood, Ryan and Pitman have found evidence for a
____post-Flood catastrophe at the end of ...
_Pre-Flood relics on the bottom of the Black Sea?
HTML https://creation.com/pre-flood-relics-on-the-bottom-of-the-black-sea
...Rather than Noah's Flood, the Black Sea evidence points to a
local, ____post-Flood catastrophe at the end of the Ice Age
around 1650 BC.
_Proconsul africanus: an examination of its anatomy and evidence
for ...
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_2/j17_2_13-15.pdf
...In 1948, Dr Mary Leakey found a distorted skull at Site R106
on Rusinga. Island, Western Kenya. The find was a nearly
complete cranium, mandi ble and full ...
_'In Peleg's days, the earth was divided'
HTML https://creation.com/in-pelegs-days-the-earth-was-divided
...This avoids the problem of another (____post-Flood)
catastrophe that would accompany such a division, and destroy
most land life. See also How ...
_'Animal salad' points to catastrophic demise
HTML https://creation.com/fossil-graveyard-points-to-catastrophic-demise
...Our interpretation determines whether we have to imagine some
____Post Flood catastrophe or a natural function of Flood
waters. Looking at the lithology and ...
_A Possible Creationist Interpretation of Archaic Fossil Human
Remains
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j06_2/j06_2_138-167.pdf
...and at least one major ____post-Flood catastrophe for
mankind. (that of the confusion of tongues at Babel). The model
does not preclude the possibility that archaic ...
_Aegyptopithecus the 'Egyptian ape'
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j18_1/j18_1_105-111.pdf
...dence for its extinction in a ____post-Flood catastrophe, TJ
17(2):13–15, 2003. 10. Simons, E.L., Origins and characteristics
of the first hominoids; in: Delson,. E. (Ed. ): ..
#Post#: 309--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 5, 2021, 2:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
YOUNGER DRYAS
_C14 YD) Calibrating carbon dating
HTML https://creation.com/calibrating-carbon-dating
...Taylor, F. W., 1993, A large drop in atmospheric 14-C/12-C
and reduced melting in the ____Younger Dryas*, documented with
230-Th ages in ...
_NIAGARA FLOOD) Climate change, Niagara and catastrophe
HTML https://creation.com/climate-change-niagara-and-catastrophe
...At some point during the ____Younger Dryas episode of the
Holocene, it breached the natural dam that made its eastern
border and catastrophically drained ...
_LAKE AGASSIZ FLOOD) Two more megafloods
HTML https://creation.com/two-more-megafloods
...Did the megaflood down the Mackenzie River cause the
____Younger Dryas? The megaflood into the Arctic Ocean from
glacial Lake Agassiz (figure 2) is claimed to ...
_NORTH SEA FLOOD) North Sea Megaflood
HTML https://creation.com/north-sea-megaflood
...and that is exactly what the ____Younger Dryas episode13,18
at the end of the Ice Age was, seemingly on a global scale.19
Another consequence was the rapid ...
_GLACIAL FLOODS) Ice cores vs the Flood
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j18_2/j18_2_58-61.pdf
...by dating such events as the ____Younger Dryas and the stage.
5e interglacial in the broad-scale oxygen isotope ratios in ice
cores. Then glacial flow models are ...
_GLACIAL MELTING) Where was Eden? part 2: geological
considerations—examining pre ...
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j30_3/j30_3_123-127.pdf
...glacial melting rates on the ____Younger Dryas event and
deep-ocean circulation,. Nature 342:637–642, 1989; note: the
present authors assume the data in this.
_MELTWATER) Eolian erosion expose
HTML https://creation.com/eolian-erosion-expose
...Broecker, W.S. et al., Routing of meltwater from Laurentide
Ice Sheet during the ____Younger Dryas cold episode, Nature
341:318–321, 28 Sept. 1989.
_DEGLACIATION) Rapid Changes in Oxygen Isotope Content of Ice
HTML http://static.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Rapid-Changes-in-Oxygen-Isotope-Content-of-Ice-Cores-.pdf
...The ____Younger Dryas Event is a climate reversal preceded
and followed by abrupt warming during the deglaciation period
about 11,000.
_DEGLACIATION) Rapid Surging of Glacial Ice Lobes
HTML https://www.icr.org/articles/print/4281
...A major event during the deglaciation of the ice sheets
called the ____Younger Dryas is now thought to have occurred in
as little as a few decades. So, fewer and ...
_EARLY EGYPT) From the Flood to the Exodus: Egypt's Earliest
Settlers
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_1/j09_1_45-68.pdf
...States, the Livingstone Lake Event, the ____Younger Dryas
Event, the formation of the English Channel. Derek Ager cites
many examples from earlier periods. 5.
_COLD & WARM PERIODS) Wild ice-core interpretations by
uniformitarian scientists
HTML https://creation.com/wild-ice-core-interpretations-by-uniformitarian-scientists
...Within the uniformitarian interpretation, Holocene represents
the last 10,000 years or so, YD is the ____Younger Dryas cold
period, A/B is the Allerod/Bolling warm ... ...One of these
points is the ____Younger Dryas (YD) fluctuation, shown in
Figure 1. The second point is stage 5d in deep sea cores.
Keigwin et al. state: 'The ice-core ...
_COOLING) Climate change & terrorism: a new political agenda?
HTML https://creation.com/climate-change-terrorism-a-new-political-agenda
...beginning of the Holocene have significantly influenced it
and triggered dramatic cooling during the episode known as the
____Younger Dryas.
_COOLING) Rapid changes in oxygen isotope content of ice cores
HTML https://creation.com/rapid-changes-in-oxygen-isotope-content-of-ice-cores
...The ____Younger Dryas Event is a climate reversal preceded
and followed by abrupt ... Alley et al.38, 39 have reported that
portions of the ____Younger Dryas Event ...
_COOLING) The Desert's Past: A Natural Prehistory of the Great
Basin
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_160-161.pdf
...Origins, 19(2):87–90. The details of this chronology have
varied over the years. The book now claims that the ____Younger
Dryas cold phase about 11,000 years ago ...
_COOLING) The Age of the Earth
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_157-160.pdf
...claims that the ____Younger Dryas cold phase about 11,000
years ago in geological time ... attention to the ____Younger
Dryas event, this claim provides evidence that.
_COOLING) The CLIMATE Project
HTML https://www.icr.org/research/climate/
...Stephen Goodenow published an ICRGS master's thesis in 2004
on the ____Younger Dryas.9 The ____Younger Dryas is an intense
but short-period reversal in the ...
_FREEZE) What Caused the Extinction of Ice Age Animals?
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/what-caused-extinction-ice-age-animals
...Scott and his colleagues looked in layers that were deposited
during a time called the ____Younger Dryas, also referred to as
the last "Big Freeze.
_GLACIATION) Ice Age Glaciers at Yosemite National Park
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/ice-age-glaciers-at-yosemite-national-park
...explain fluctuations in glacial coverage in Yosemite, like
those of the ____Younger Dryas event on the east coast of the
United States and Europe.
_GLACIATION) Out of Whose Womb Came the Ice?
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/out-whose-womb-came-ice
..."Abrupt Increase in Greenland Snow Accumulation at the End of
the ____Younger Dryas Event," Nature, 362, 527-529. [2]
Dansgaard, W., S.J. Johnsen, H.B. Clausen ...
_FREEZE) The Greenhouse Warming Hype of The Movie The Day After
HTML https://www.icr.org/article/greenhouse-warming-hype-movie-day-after-tomorrow
...The end ice age cold spike is called the ____Younger Dryas.
These rapid changes are believed to represent abrupt changes
that take place within a few decades or ...
#Post#: 311--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 7, 2021, 12:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
SHOCK DYNAMICS DISCUSSION
____LK: Subject: Flood Geology May 23, 2021, 11:03 PM
_[WEST SED<EAST] Michael Oard article: Long-distance transport
of sediments
HTML https://creation.com/long-distance-transport-of-sediments
_"All this sediment in western North America transported from
eastern North America does imply a large mountain uplift in the
east" according to zircon dating.
_Another article showed that the water flow velocity for the
Coconino sandstone was only 2 to 4 miles per hour.
____mike newgeology.us May 24, 2021, 9:23 PM
.[ZIRCON] I don't regard zircon crystals as useful except as
chemical ID markers, which they could be in this case.
____LK: May 27, 2021, 12:39 PM
_[SD VS FLOOD] My first concern is whether the SD event occurred
during or after the Great Flood.
_I like John Baumgardner's model - [he said] continental drift
occurred rapidly, but during the Flood
_[CHICXULUB] in your Presentation 30: When Did It Happen?, you
say the Chicxulub impact occurred after the land had dried out.
your North America page give evidence that Chicxulub was
oriented east/west initially, but was reoriented by the SD event
north/south
____mike newgeology.us May 28, 2021, 5:18 PM
.[PELEG] I use the Septuagint text for the timing of Peleg (Gen
10:25) to make it 531 years.
.[FLOOD BOUNDARY] But more important is the fossil record.
Below the top of Cretaceous strata are all the dinosaurs, and
above it are all the mammalian megafauna.
.Cenozoic strata were deposited during the SD event, and all
strata below that by the Flood.
.[DEEP SED HEAT,WATER] Subterranean rocks hold heat and moisture
for a long time. The saturated Flood strata would not have
dried out by the time of the SD event, but compression folding
would wring them out like a sponge.
.Catastrophic Plate Tectonics - a catastrophic geology theory -
youtube.com/watch?v=L9KBgemExg0
____LK: May 28, 2021, 8:49 PM
_[WEST SED<SE?] LK2b: If the SDE was centuries later, then the
waters had to come from the SE of Pangaea.
_[RADIOACTIVITY] LK2c: I like Walter Brown's ideas on
radioactive elements - I would say the radioactive elements
formed during SD
____mike newgeology.us May 29, 2021, 5:08 PM
.[DEEP SED HEAT,WATER] Water resides in sandstone aquifers, and
deep drilling encounters increased heat with depth. Folded rock
strata were clearly under high lateral pressure. I meant that
the folded strata were wrung dry. Other sedimentary strata,
uplifted or not, would dry out slowly over the centuries from
the top down.
.[CANYON <ICE MELT] If the Grand Canyon is a post-ice age runoff
phenomenon, and the ice age occurred following the SDE, that
would put its formation in the years after the SDE.
.[RADIOACTIVITY] No, I think that conventional science has it
right about the formation of all elements in the Earth. Every
melting of Earth material refines the separation of the
elements. Two big melts occurred, first with Earth's accretion,
then the giant impact that formed the Moon. Thus, many elements
are concentrated in the crust that are diluted in the upper
mantle.
.[MOON CRATERS ORIGIN] I agree that one of two Moon crater
populations corresponds to the Flood, but orbital mechanics
precludes space debris from measurably altering the orbit of
Earth or the Moon; way too much mass is involved.
.[BASIN SEDS] _LK: On the map at this link
HTML https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sediment.html#why
it shows most
of the sediment to be in basins and esp. in the Arctic Ocean.
Why would tidal waves not do that? ​MF: I think tidal
waves did do that during the SDE.
.[SED ORIGIN] from Flood deposits.
____LK: May 30, 2021, 11:02 AM
_SUMMARY OF NEWGEOLOGY TIMELINE from "When did it happen?" page
1. PREFLOOD
- Dinosaurs @ Pangaea; Man & Mammals @ E.Antarctica;
- Sediments formed @ Pangaea's perimeter;
- Pangaea was a lowland supercontinent
2. FLOOD
- Meteorites hit Earth & Moon, removed atmosphere, caused rain,
made craters & flood basalts
- Flood washed sediments with degassed lime ashore & buried
marine creatures in Paleozoic strata, then dinosaurs in Mesozoic
strata
3a. POSTFLOOD FAUNA
- Mammals & humans spread from E.Antarctica to Pangaea & became
populous
3b. POSTFLOOD IMPACT
- Chicxulub crater formed from an impact after the Flood which
spread iridium-laden impact dust worldwide
4. PANGAEA BREAKUP
- Asteroid impact north of Madagascar split up Pangaea;
- continents spread apart via rapid continental drift;
- impulse & brake mountain ranges formed;
- global volcanism ensued;
- floods buried mammals in Cenozoic strata;
- Nile River rerouted;
- Canada & Siberia moved northward, causing wind storms that
killed many large mammals in dust ((& rock ice, but not by
flood?))
5. POST-BREAKUP
- Civilization began in Egypt ((& Sumeria))
- Hot Atlantic & Indian Ocean seafloors, volcanism & India flood
basalts ((& meteoric dust)) caused glaciation (Ice Age) at
higher latitudes & altitudes
_YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT - Do you think the Younger Dryas impact/s
would have been the cause of the ice sheet melting?
____mike newgeology.us May 31, 2021, 11:01 PM
.[SUMMARY] Your summary of my view is about right.
.FLOOD - both the rain and fountains ceased at the same time,
according to Genesis, so they were likely linked.
.[STRATA] - I consider the megasequences to be sediment-laden
surges carried by periodic offshore waves generated by rising
waters; one wave, one megasequence.
.ORBITING BODY - [[I just realized the Cardona said the Moon
didn't arrive till the Saturn System was breaking up. If the
breakup was during the YD event, then there would have been no
Moon during the Great Flood.]]
.YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT
____mike newgeology.us Wed, Jun 2, 5:35 PM
.[STRATA] - the meteorites did not cause tidal waves by impact.
The rising global water level encroached on Pangaea in waves as
long as the rain continued to fall.
.GRAND CANYON - LK: do you figure the sediment was wet or dry
when the canyon formed? ​MF: Probably between wet and dry.
MF: There is evidence that the YD impact(s) brought firestorms.
The heat could have been a factor in ice sheet melting.
However, I agree with ICR leaders that it was a dam breach that
led to cutting the Grand Canyon. Melt water built up behind a
berm, and it was released in a torrent when the berm failed.
____LK: Thu, Jun 3, 11:50 AM
_[SATURN THEORY] - Ancient myths and possibly some detritus
(iridium etc) on Earth seem to support the idea that the Younger
Dryas heat wave and conflagration was caused by a nova flareup
on Saturn which was close to Earth at that time above the North
Pole. Along with the nova came meteor showers etc. Any comments?
____mike newgeology.us Jun 3, 2021, 5:04 PM
.[PANGAEA] - continental crust was formed as refined mantle melt
rock that eroded to sediment over a very long time. That is
what was carried and sorted by the tidal waves, as the work of
Guy Berthault demonstrates.
.[GRAND CANYON DATE] - Walt Brown has it about right. The Grand
Canyon is clearly post-Flood.
.[SATURN THEORY] Novas are collapsed stars that explode. How
could that involve Saturn?
#Post#: 312--------------------------------------------------
Re: COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS
By: Admin Date: June 7, 2021, 11:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
NO MOON
<COMPARISON> Ascertaining the Year of the Capture (Moons, Myths
and Man) [Books]
... of a planet into a satellite is one of the most overwhelming
that may conceivably happen, the determination of the year in
which both the Egyptian and the Assyrian cycles coincide must
furnish us with a most important indication regarding the
capture of our Moon. The Palaeo-Assyrians could not possibly
have calculated by months at a time when there was ____no Moon.
When the unheard-of thing happened, they must have abandoned
whatever system they had in use and taken the convenient Moon as
their new measure. On the other hand, the Palaeo-Egyptians,
there being now two heavenly bodies to calculate time from, must
have reconsidered their calendar and started a new era. We know
from history that
<AFTER FLOOD> Before the Flood, There Was No Moon [Journals]
[SIS Internet Digest]
... From: SIS Internet Digest 2002:2 (Dec 2002) Home | Issue
Contents Before the Flood, There Was ____No Moon
english.pravda.ru/main/2002/10/10/38008.html 15:43 10 Oct 2002
[. .] As it turns out, a lot of myths, legends, and tales say
that there used to be ____no Moon in the sky. The Moon appeared
after the Great Flood. This was noticed by the people who lived
in the south of Greece, as well as by African tribes and others.
However, there were a lot of ebb and flow traces found in many
ancient cities. As is
<MYTHS> The Age of Purple Darkness [Journals] [Aeon]
... version of the ancient Egyptian creation myth, as
reconstructed by Dr. Brugsch, wherein: "Nothing existed except a
boundless primeval mass of water which was shrouded in
darkness," [2 ] and, for another example, a North American
Indian creation myth wherein it is told that: "In the beginning
there was no sun, ____no moon, no stars. All was dark and
everywhere was only water." [3 ] Light Appears on the Waters One
tradition of the creation hymn preserved in the Rigveda of
ancient India relates that: "Darkness there was at first by
darkness hidden; without distinctive marks, this all was water."
[4 ] In
<BIBLE> IN THE BEGINNING [Books]
... The years' of the mythological parts of the Book of Genesis
are meant to be shorter periods. Twelfths' would reduce the
fantastic ages to the neighbourhood of a reasonable human span,
in the sense of Psalm xc. 10. Noah would thus be about fifty at
that time. These twelfths' would be solar' ones - there having
been ____no Moon' at that time - comparable to our own
subdivisions of the year which, for some unclear reason, we call
months'. (Cf. also chapter x of my book, Before the Flood, for
references to a former, definitely non-lunar, duodecimal
division of the solar year.) Note 38 - The number of the rivers
<BIBLE> Review, Notes and Letters [Journals] [Pensee]
... to rule the night: (he made) the stars also." Most
Bible-interpreters deem it obvious that the lesser light must be
the moon; however, the words "he made the stars also" could very
well be rendered this way: "namely the stars." Then with the
lesser light the stars are meant, and ____no moon is mentioned.
There is good reason to read it this way, because of verse 14.
Here we read: "And God said: let there be lights in the
firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and
let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
<BIBLE> Saturn And Genesis [Journals] [Kronos]
... Moon in historical times (see Pensee, Winter 1973, p. 25).
Specifically, De Jong refers to the passage "And God made two
great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser
light to rule the night" - reasoning that by "the lesser light
the .stars are meant, and ____no moon is mentioned." Now, as it
happens, the planet Saturn was designated as Shamash or "sun" by
the Assyro-Babylonian astrologers; and as far back as 1910 M.
Jastrow (Revue d'Assyriologie, Vol. 70, p. 171) proposed "the
idea that Saturn was a steady' or permanent' mock-sun -
<POST-VELIK> The Lesser Light [Journals] [Catastrophism &
Ancient History]
... , was this body the Lesser Light of Genesis? We might
reasonably infer that it was if we can find some assurance that
it and the moon did not coexist in earth's sky. A Moonless Night
In May 1973 Velikovsky published a short article citing several
alleged references (including biblical) to an ancient era in
man's memory when there was ____no moon. In summary, he states
"The traditions of diverse people offer corroborative testimony
to the effect that in a very early age, but still in the memory
of mankind, ____no moon accompanied the earth. Since human
beings already peopled the earth, it is improbable that the moon
sprang from it; there must have existed a
<POST-VELIK> On the Circularization of the Orbit of Venus
[Journals] [Kronos]
... Moon may also be a captured body - no really satisfactory
theory has been found for the existence of a satellite to the
Earth, the difficulty with the capture theory being the
circularization problem. The extra difficulty which meets the
catastrophist is that the time scale is so short. Some of the
oldest traditions refer to a time when there was ____no Moon.(3
) This indicates that the Moon was captured comparatively
recently. Furthermore, Velikovsky has suggested that the Earth
was once a satellite of Saturn. This seems to be the only way to
explain certain parts of the oldest myths, but it leaves us with
another circularization problem: how did the Earth get its
circular orbit
<VELIKOVSKY> The Origin Of The Moon [Journals] [Velikovskian]
... "The Arcadians are said to have possessed their land before
the birth of Jove, and that folk is older than the Moon."
Lucian, in his...Astrology, says that the Arcadians "affirm in
their folly that they are older than the Moon." Censorinus
alludes to the time in the past when there was ____no Moon in
the sky. The Assyrians referred to the time of the Moon god as
the oldest period in the memory of the people: before other
planetary gods came to dominate the world ages, the Moon was the
Supreme Deity. Such references are found in the inscriptions of
Sargon II (about-720): "Since the far-off days
<VELIKOVSKY> Earth without a Moon [Journals] [Pensee]
... are said to have possessed their land before the birth of
Jove, and that folk is older than the Moon (4 ). " Lucian in his
book on Astrology says that the Arcadians "affirm in their folly
that they are older than the moon (5 ). " Censorinus alludes to
the time in the past when there was ____no moon in the sky (6 ).
The Assyrians referred to the time of the Moon god as to the
oldest period in the memory of the people: before other
planetary gods came to dominate the world ages, the Moon was the
Supreme Deity (7 ). Such references are found in the
inscriptions of Sargon I I (
<Hoerbiger> (The Atlantis Myth) [Books]
... gravitational stresses, caused these tremendous universal
changes, whose evident suddenness and comparative recency are
explained. Internal terrestrial forces can only work `locally'
they can merely even out such stresses from without as cannot be
easily borne .46 The Greek philosopher, Anaxagoras, taught, as
early as the fifth century BC, that the Earth had originally
____no Moon, and the myths of the world contain a few traditions
of a pre-lunar age and numerous reports of the capture of our
present satellite. Our Moon certainly behaves now as it should
according to Hoerbiger's theory. Solar eclipses take place
slightly earlier now if compared with those of, say, only a
century ago. This is sometimes
<Hoerbiger> Prelunar Culture (The Atlantis Myth) [Books]
... '. (A colonial origin of Minoan Crete has never been
seriously considered) The undiscovered original settlements of
the Minoans, where they rose from primitivism, were evidently
situated at the submerged `foot' of the island of Crete, perhaps
only a relatively small distance from Cnossus. When these
settlements flourished, at the time when there was ____no Moon
yet in the heavens and the Mediterranean was not yet formed,
Crete was a much bigger island. When the waters of the capture
tide rushed in through the Straits of Gibraltar, and later also
through the defile of the Hellespont, and the basins of the
Ionian and Levantine Seas filled up, and the waters from east
and
<CARDONA> THOTH - A Catastrophics Newsletter
VOL III, No. 17 - Dec 15, 1999
HTML https://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1999.17.txt
THE AGE OF DARKNESS
My version of the Saturnian scenario posits that man's earliest
memory of the sky above him was one in which the planet Saturn
was the only visible celestial body which was seen looming large
in the sky in an all-pervading darkness -- an endless night.
One of the most persistent of beliefs among the civilizations of
the ancient nations ... is that during a time usually remembered
as 'the beginning' Earth had been engulfed in darkness. Time
and again ... we are told that 'in the beginning' there was no
Sun, ____no Moon, no stars.
<CARDONA> The Demands of the Saturnian Configuration Theory
[Journals] [SIS Review]
... celestial body, looming large in an all-pervading darkness -
an endless night. One of the most persistent beliefs among the
civilisations of ancient nations and also primitive' societies
is that during a time remembered as the beginning', Earth was
engulfed in darkness. Time and again we are told that in the
beginning' there was no Sun, ____no Moon, no stars. The
planetary god of beginnings, we are told ad nauseam, ruled alone
and in darkness. Whether we turn to the pages of Genesis or to
the ancient Egyptian myths of creation, the message is always
the same; whether we seek the first appearance of the Hebrew
Elohim or the Egyptian Atum, it
<CARDONA> Darkness and the Deep [Journals] [Aeon]
... , hardly a North American Indian tribe that does not have a
creation myth in which the primeval ocean and/or prolonged
darkness was said to have existed before the demiurge commenced
on his work of creation. (105) Over and again we hear that there
was darkness- or a prolonged night- in which there was no sun,
____no moon, no stars. In the telling, of course, many of these
myths acquired a fanciful cast and framework that borders on
childish fable. But that, after all, is the nature of allegory
and myth. Traveling further south to Central America, we come
across a Cholula legend which states that, "In the beginning
NO MOON VISIBLE
The Argive Tyrants, Part 2 Mars Ch.1 (Worlds in Collision)
[Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Worlds in Collision]
... world destruction experienced by those who lived at the time
of Atreus and Thyestes, the tyrants of the Argivc plain. The
hearts of men were oppressed with terror at the sight of the
untimely sunset. "The shadows arise, though the night is not yet
ready. No stars come out; the heavens gleam not with any fires:
____no moon dispels the darkness' heavy pall. . . . Trembling,
trembling are our hearts, sore smit with fear, lest all things
fall shattered in fatal ruin and once more gods and men be
overwhelmed by formless chaos; lest the lands, the encircling
sea, and the stars that wander in the spangled sky, nature blot
Part III: The Legends [Ragnarok] [Books]
... people climbed up, from the cave in which they were hidden,
to the surface of the earth, the dense clouds rested on the face
of the earth. "Machito, one of their gods, raised the firmament
on his shoulders to where it is now seen. Still the world was
dark, as there was no sun, ____no moon, and no stars. So the
people murmured because of the darkness and the cold. Machito
said, Bring me seven maidens'; and they brought him seven
maidens; and he said, Bring me seven baskets of cotton-bolls';
and they brought him seven baskets of cotton-bolls; and he
taught the seven maidens to weave
Some Implications of Saunders' Lunar Hypothesis [Journals] [SIS
Review]
... the Sun must involve an implicit acceptance of anomalous
behaviour of the Moon also: moreover, the account in Joshua is
explicit on this matter. Articles by Velikovsky [6 ] and
Paterson [7 ] cite ancient stories handed down to later
recorders to the effect that in a very early age, but still in
the memory of mankind, ____no Moon accompanied the Earth'. Taken
literally, these tales would show that Earth did not acquire its
Moon till some time after it was peopled by humans. It is,
however, just possible that they relate to a time when many
peoples saw that the Moon had disappeared from the heavens for
many days, although the skies were
Uniformitarian Or Catastrophist? Ice Age Theory [Journals]
[Velikovskian]
... . The heat has carried up perhaps one fourth of all the
water of the world into the air. Now it is condensed into
clouds. We know how an ordinary storm darkens the heavens. In
this case, it is dark night. A pall of dense cloud, many miles
in thickness, enfolds the earth. No sun, ____no moon, no stars,
can be seen.... The overloaded atmosphere begins to discharge
itself. The great work of restoring the waters of the ocean
begins. It grows colder-colder-colder. The pouring rain turns
into snow and settles on all the uplands and north countries;
snow falls on snow; gigantic snow-beds are formed, which
Part II: The Comet [Ragnarok] [Books]
... world. The heat has carried up perhaps one fourth of all the
water of the world into the air. Now it is condensed into cloud.
We know how an ordinary storm darkens the heavens. In this case
it is black night. A pall of dense cloud, many miles in
thickness, enfolds the earth. No sun, ____no moon, no stars, can
be seen. "Darkness is on the face of the deep." Day has ceased
to be. Men stumble against each other. All this we shall find
depicted in the legends. The overloaded atmosphere begins to
discharge itself. The great work of restoring the waters of the
ocean to the ocean
Changes in the Times and the Seasons, Part 1 Venus Ch.5 (Worlds
in Collision) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Worlds in Collision]
... of the world also retain memories of this change in the
movement of the heavenly bodies, the seasons, the flow of time,
during a period when darkness enveloped the world. As an example
I quote the tradition of the Oraibi in Arizona. They say that
the firmament hung low and the world was dark, and no sun,
____no moon, nor stars were seen. "The people murmured because
of the darkness and the cold." Then the planet god Machito
"appointed times, and seasons, and ways for the heavenly
bodies."(8 ) Among the Incas the "guiding power in regulating
the seasons and the courses of the heavenly bodies" was
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