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X = [1-4] The Ice Age
By: Admin Date: January 7, 2017, 7:41 pm
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[1-4] The Ice Age
=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:58 am
... Ice Age. I'm trying to get more discussion on this topic, so
I brought it up on another forum too at
HTML http://www.christianforums.com/threads/great-flood-evidence.7921217/.<br
/>One of the members there provided a link to a good article on
the Arctic animals. It's The extinction of the woolly mammoth:
was it a quick freeze?
HTML http://creation.com/the-extinction-of-the-woolly-mammoth-was-it-a-quick-freeze.<br
/>I also emailed NewGeology.us ...
- That article answers almost all of my questions, except for
the problem of why the frozen animals' cells didn't burst. I
don't know how certain it is that their cells didn't burst, but
supposedly when animals' bodies freeze normally, their cells do
burst. And it's only by flash freezing them to extremely cold
temperatures that can prevent the cells from bursting. And
besides unburst cells, there's said to be other evidence of
flash freezing, namely the claims that streams were found in
Siberia I think with fish frozen in them in medium level depths
and, more importantly, one stream with cattle swimming in it
with their heads above the ice and their bodies in swimming
position.
- Oard's Solution. The article has a novel but very plausible
solution. It agrees that the Arctic animals migrated to the
Arctic after the Great Flood. The Arctic Ocean remained warm for
a few centuries and the land area around it was also warm in
winter and summer, I guess kind of like around the Mediterranean
Sea. Glaciation started in eastern Canada and Greenland and
gradually spread to central Canada and the Arctic. Many of the
animals got trapped there around the Arctic Ocean. Wind-blown
loess and ice killed them and buried them, some while still
standing or kneeling. Dust storms apparently can bury large
objects sometimes. I just found an update of Oard's paper here:
HTML https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_2/j17_2_74-79.pdf.
- Remaining Doubts. I'm still not completely satisfied, as there
still seems to be a strong possibility that the freezing was
extremely sudden and bitter, below -150 F, and it seems
questionable that the Arctic could provide enough vegetation in
the winters for so many animals, and at least some of the
animals in eastern Siberia were hit by shrapnel from meteor air
bursts. A bison that was hit by micrometeorites appeared to
continue living after being hit, since the bone [or horn?]
started to grow back over the punctures.
--------------------Postby johnm33 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:19 am
__REFERENCE
This is a piece by Ginenthal which is full of references
HTML http://saturniancosmology.org/files/holden/velikovskianiv-no.4.txt
__- 8. GRAND CANYON
LK: Is it obvious that the Grand Canyon formed from dam breaks
of the ancient lakes that previously existed north and east of
the canyon?
- Do you know how to calculate how soft the ground had to be in
order for the canyon to erode so quickly and deeply?
- And do you know how to calculate how young the sediments had
to be in order to be that soft?
GW: The Grand Canyon is the popular go to for both
catastrophists and uniformitarians, so is a good place to
discuss the mechanisms of sedimentation. I refer folks to Guy
Berthault's sedimentology for the understanding of how multiple
deep sedimentary layers are formed simultaneously by a moving
current. The depositing of the sediments and subsequent draining
of the rising plateau may have happened within weeks of each
other, so the ground would have been adequately soft and
immeasurably "young". As to the cementation process in rock
formation, there is no reason to require long ages for sediment
to become rock. We can do it in hours for a concrete sidewalk.
How can we know this could happen in the past? The evidence is
before our very eyes: The cement we use comes from the rock
formations we're taking into evidence -- the rocks are full of
these cementers, which we quarry out and grind up for our use.
There is no mystery, these rock formations may take months, even
years to fully cure, but why assume the hundreds of millions of
years required by the standard model? Related, the process of
petrifaction is accomplished in hours in the lab, under the
right conditions and catalysts. That these conditions existed in
the past is inferred [not proven] by the fact that we find
petrified remains in all kinds of sedimentary materials. Again,
no reason whatever to claim ages of millions of years except to
support the requirements of the standard model.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:40 pm
__GRAND CANYON EROSION
I used to think the Grand Canyon may have been carved
electrically, but then I found out that there were two large
ancient lakes that just happened to break open and drained
through the Grand Canyon. They obviously drained when the
sedimentary strata were still not very hard, which is why the
canyon became so huge. I think that was a few centuries after
the Great Flood, during the Shock Dynamics event.
--------------------Postby GaryN » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:31 pm
__POTHOLES
<<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that
formed from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by
vortex cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes
in bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from
glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift?
Maybe this image answers the question:
HTML http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/Images/riverpotholes10.jpg
-
The cobbles in that pothole will be found to be still attached
to the bedrock, I have lots of images of the same kind of thing.
The cobbles are of a different composition to the bedrock,
basalt in my case, which means they were created and
metamorphosed just where they now are. Forget water or glaciers,
ALL rounded pebbles, cobbles, boulders were created by EM means
in a split second.
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/garyinsooke/14409266996/in/album-72157636766895323
____________________Postby webolife » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:31 pm
__POTHOLES
I think I disagree with Gary's assessment of the included
pebbles in the potholes. In studying eastern Washington
potholes, and other hilly basalt areas where pebbles are also
found, I find rather that water action is likely responsible for
the placement of these stream-rounded non-basalt rocks. In the
case of smaller potholes, as were pictured above, the pebbles
are agents of cavitation, and as they are forcefully slammed
into the basalt by the vertical action, they can become
lodged... this is an usual occurrence, but when I've seen it,
the pebbles are wedged into crevices or other openings in
vesicular basalt, or just laying on the floor of or surrounding
the rim of larger potholes. The potholes I studied are those
adjacent to Deep Lake in the Sun Lakes State Park, and the hilly
areas were south of Vantage around Mattawa, where I hiked to
collect petrified wood samples.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:08 pm
__MAMMOTHS
Frozen Mammoth Questions
I can't figure out if the frozen Arctic animals froze during the
Great Flood, or some centuries later. It seems they had to die
later, since they mostly didn't drown, but this video
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IIE8UnvPUg
suggests that they
died during the Great Flood, when the northern continents moved
from their formerly warmer locations to their present ones. But
what could have caused the temperature in the Arctic then to
suddenly go below -150 F, the temperature needed to flash freeze
them and prevent mammoth stomach contents from beginning to
digest or rot? Also, what made the Arctic muck and loess and ice
pellets that killed some or most of them? The muck contains a
lot of smashed tree and animal parts.
--------------------Postby nick c » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:43 am
__MAMMOTHS
On page 3 and 4 of this thread there was some discussion of the
frozen wooly mammoth carcasses that are periodically found
within the Arctic Circle.
Previously, THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH, By Charles Ginenthal
was only available as a hardcopy for purchase; the book is now
freely available on the net as a PDF here:
HTML http://immanuelvelikovsky.com/Mammoth_01052014.pdf
====================postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:38 pm
__MAMMOTHS EXTINCTION
- In the thread, Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology
at
HTML http://www.thunderbolts.inf
o/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16219&p=112560#p112559
- I said: I found a good paper online by Oard that I think might
help to get a more thorough model for ancient cataclysm
completed. Oard's paper is at
HTML http://creation.com/defining-the-flood-post-flood-boundary-in-sedimentary-rocks<br
/>. Maybe you've read it already.
__MAMMOTHS
frozen mammoths, and evidence for the very fast cataclysm that
froze them:
HTML http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FrozenMammoths.html
====================postby Lloyd » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:29 pm
__GREAT FLOOD VS GLACIATION
- "NOT GLACIAL DRIFT, BUT GREAT FLOOD DRIFT"
Problems in the Glacial Theory
Creation Research Society Quarterly, 13(1):25-34, June 1976
[Note: I'm not a creationist, but they published a lot of good
science. I suspect that the great majority of glacial evidence
is actually great flood evidence as this article explains.]
- DRIFT
... A layer of unconsolidated material [called drift] ... covers
the solid sedimentary and igneous rocks in the temperate zones
of Europe and North America. ... A ... similar [layer] occurs in
parts of India, in South Africa, the tropical zones of South
America, and in many mountainous areas of the world.
<<__Question 1 for Gordon: Do you agree that the drift in India,
S Africa & S America suggests that the drift layer was deposited
before the supercontinent split, because those 3 areas were
adjacent on the supercontinent? Europe & N America were also
adjacent. I wonder if the other mountainous areas containing
drift are adjacent to both of those two north & south
locations.>>
<<__Question 2 for Gordon: Why did the drift not lithify during
the flood? Is there any other significant amount of drift that
wasn't deposited by the Great Flood? And why are there locations
with no drift?>
- The material consists of gravel, sand and clay, with many
large boulders of variable composition, and innumerable rounded
stones and pebbles of all sizes. Often it is hundreds of feet
thick. Frequently stratification exists, and it is usually
present in the sand in the pattern of cross stratification.
- Cross stratification:
HTML http://www.earth.northwestern.edu/individ/brad/baraboo/geology/pics/crossstrat.gif
- Usually referred to as "drift", the material is also known as
boulder-clay, diluvium, outwash deposits, glacial moraine, and
till. ... In general, the landforms composed of drift have a
remarkably fresh appearance. Although they contain loose
material, the effects of erosion have been minimal, showing they
could not be of great age but must have been formed recently.
<Glacial Theory> Geologists believe that the last of the ice
disappeared only a few thousand years ago.
- The [layer] of drift is shaped into a wide variety of
structures, [kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings,
striations, potholes & erratics, as follows below]....
<<__Question 3 for Gordon: Can you explain how a megatsunami
could produce each of the drift types discussed below, i.e.
kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations,
potholes & erratics? Or can you give a source that explains them
all?>
- Images of kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings,
striations, potholes & erratics:
- Kame:
HTML https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/ndnotes/Veblens/Images/Diagram-a-1%20copy.jpg
- Esker:
HTML http://8c4625.medialib.glogster.com/media/b1c37420af793bb953a2b933c638f1dc0fc6756daff86b6338c9dd65cdcd4599/esker-with-permission.jpg
- Drumlin:
HTML http://www.geo-logic.org/Glacial%20Geology/cd33022%20drumlin%20example001,%20www.royalalbertmuseum.ca.gif
- Fluting:
HTML http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_7CSUyHA0I8/T_8GPcCqaVI/AAAAAAAAAdA/xIt2PSh4Y5E/s1600/GlacialFluting.jpg
- Striations:
HTML https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6174/6139928577_aca529683e_b.jpg
- Potholes:
HTML https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/ae04a988-67fd-4e09-89ef-314ad88f5b75.jpg
- Erratics:
HTML http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/32/x150832-004-CFC3FEC0.jpg.pagespeed.ic.I5bgaOeS82.jpg
- KAMES
- Kames are conical mounds usually composed of sandy material.
<Glacial Theory> [Kames] are thought to have been caused by the
dumping of glacial debris when the great ice sheets of the
glacial age melted.
- ESKERS
- Eskers are long, winding ridges of gravel and sand....
Sometimes branching eskers occur. The eskers are known to
stretch for great distances, go up and down hills, and disappear
and occur again further on.
<Glacial Theory> [Eskers] are explained in the glacial theory as
the debris of rivers formed in or on the glaciers, that was let
down when the ice melted.
- RIMMED PLATEAUS
In the prairie regions of Canada and in the northern states of
the United States there are various kinds of rimmed plateau(s),
composed of drift. Often these have central depressions
containing clay sediments. The rims are often composed of stony
material and contorted drift layers. Some of the rimmed
plateau(s) or prairie mounds are of large size, with areas of
several square miles, and may reach as much as 150 feet above
the surrounding hummocky and pitted regions.
Hummocky:
HTML http://www.seddepseq.co.uk/SEDIMENTOLOGY/Sedimentology_Features/Strat_Bedforms/Hummock1.jpg
<Glacial Theory> The rimmed plateau(s) and prairie mounds are
explained in the glacial theory as landforms created during the
melting of the great ice-sheets. The glaciers, it is believed,
sometimes melted in such a way that isolated blocks of ice were
formed, that wasted away and deposited their debris in various
kinds of rimmed structures and plateau(s).
- DRUMLINS, FLUTINGS
- Drumlins are hills shaped like the inverted bowl of a
spoon.... Glacial flutings are similar, elongated parallel
ridges and troughs. Individual flutings may stretch for several
miles in the prairies of Canada and parts of North Dakota and
Montana.
Drumlins and flutings are ... streamlined landforms ... often
composed of drift, but many are bedrock or partly bedrock. Some
have a mass of bedrock at their upstream ends. ... In drumlin
swarms the drumlins all have locally parallel orientation ...
sometimes covering thousands of square miles.
<Glacial Theory> Drumlins and flutings are explained as the
effects of the movement of the ice in the glacial theory. The
ice-sheet flowing across the countryside shaped and moulded the
rocks and previously deposited layers of glacial debris into
these remarkable ... landforms....
<<__Question 4 for Gordon: Could the parallel Nebraska dunes be
drumlins or flutings? Is there any way an ice sheet could move
significantly and streamline any of these drift types?>
- STRIATIONS
- Striations are frequently present on the surface of the
bedrock underlying the layer of drift. In some areas the bare
rocks uncovered by drift are also scratched and grooved, as if
by movement of stones across them.... Within the layers of
gravel in the drift there are many rocks and boulders that are
striated.
<Glacial Theory> These are thought to have been transported by
ice and abraded in the process. ... [Bedrock surface striations
are] attributed to the ice-sheets in the glacial theory [with]
large numbers of stones being carried along in its base, that
gouged the bedrock as the ice-sheet went along.
<<__Question 5 for Gordon: How could megatsunamis make
striations on bedrock and on the rocks that they push around?>
- POTHOLES
- In the bedrock underneath the drift, and at many places where
the bedrock is exposed, there are deep vertical potholes, ...
usually filled up with the drift material, sand and gravel and
large boulders.
<Glacial Theory> [Potholes] are often explained by reference to
the glacial theory. These are attributed to glacial "moulins" or
waterfalls tumbling down crevasses in the ice, that eroded the
bedrock and caused these deep holes.
<<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that formed
from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by vortex
cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes in
bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from
glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift?
Maybe this image answers the question:
HTML http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/Images/riverpotholes10.jpg
>
- ERRATICS
- Large boulders, ... known as "erratics" ..., are found in some
regions with a composition quite different from that of the
bedrock [and other drift] in the vicinity. These may sometimes
be as large as houses, and are usually rounded, though some are
of irregular shape. In the drift there are stones and pebbles of
varying composition and appearance, but most of the rocks
reflect the composition of the bedrock underneath.
<Glacial Theory> The large boulders ... are considered to have
been transported from regions afar by the moving ice-sheets. ...
<<__Question 7 for Gordon: Why is most drift of the same rock
type as the bedrock under it? If the flood transported large
erratic boulders, shouldn't smaller kinds of drift material also
be erratic?>
... ... Flint provides a table of some examples of ... erratics
... [here modified & supplemented]:
- Erratics
Moved .. Uplifted
distance: height: .. From:
> 18 km; 1000 m; Mount Katahdin, Maine
> 100 km; 900 m; Adirondack Mountains, New York
160 km; 500 m; Allegheny Plateau, central New York
80 km; .. 900 m; Killington Peak, Green Mountains, Vermont
1,300 km; 1,300 m; Rocky Mountains of Alberta
-----------------------------
Moved dist: .. To: .... From:
100-1250 km; UK-Russia; Scandinavia & Finland
1000 km; .... Missouri; Ontario
... km; ..............; Alberta
... km; ..............; Manitoba
... km; ..............; Northwest Territories
... km; ..............; [Ireland &] Wales
... km; ..............; Northern Germany
- These erratics, [many] perched higher than their sources, if
they are to be attributed to ice, would require that the
direction of the flow of the ice was opposite to the slope of
the land. Flint suggested that the stones were carried in the
base of the ice, which flowed uphill, rather than that they
somehow migrated upwards through the ice. ... How Could the Ice
Move Uphill?... Howorth accused the glacialists of departing
from the principles of physics and appealing to "transcendental
causes". ... Howorth believed that the motivation of geologists
who favored the glacial theory was their reluctance to accept a
catastrophic alternative. ... In his book Ice or Water he
[said:] ... Their real inspiration has been the fervent hope
embodied in the words with which Sir R. Ball concludes his
ill-fated book on the Glacial Age. "The appeal to ice removed
the glacial period from the position of a 'catastrophic'
phenomenon. It placed the ice-sheet as an implement at the
disposal of the geological uniformitarian."
__ARCTIC CARNAGE
-
HTML http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv02.txt
- THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part II
... THE ARCTIC CARNAGE
... Arctic muck ... covers no less than one seventh of the land
surface of earth, all of which ... lies within the Arctic
Circle. Composed mainly of silt, sand, pebbles, and boulders, it
is often accompanied by 'preserved, semi-decayed, or fully
decayed vegetable and animal matter.' Its depth, in some places,
'has always caused even the most open-minded geologists to
boggle.' The Russians, who have conducted prolonged studies on
this muck, have in some places drilled down to more than 4000
feet without reaching rock bottom. Entire forests have been
found buried in this area, including plum trees complete with
their leaves and fruits, to say nothing of palm trees and huge
exotic ferns ... [as well as animals like] the mammoth. ...
[T]he Arctic Ocean [itself is] an immense basin scoured out of
the living rock. [The north polar tornado/vortex did all that.]
... Entire forests in an uprooted condition, bituminous trunks
and fossilized charcoal, are everywhere [in the Arctic]
intermingled with petrified ash, and veins of ice, and sand that
has turned into sandstone. Among this colossal devastation are
found the skeletons of mammoths, rhinoceroses, bison, and
horses.
... In the Mahabharata we read that Mandara, that churning
mountain, was 'crowded with tusked animals.' Moreover, when the
churning began, great trees spun off, were crushed against one
another, lightning flashed forth, a fire blazed burning the
elephants and other beasts, 'and all the various creatures there
lost their life's breath.' The water pouring from above
eventually dowsed the fire and flowed into the ocean.
... THE ONSLAUGHT OF ICE
... How did it all freeze? ... This is an easy question to
answer. [The ancients] had long associated ... Saturn [on the
polar vortex] with snow and hail, ... cold and moist, ... cold
and windy, ... cold and frozen, [a] cold star. ... William of
Conches ... tells us that 'Saturn is called cold not because he
is inherently cold himself but because he causes cold.' ...
[T]he Modoc Indians of southern Oregon and northern California
[said] the Chief of the Sky Spirits drilled a hole in the sky
with a rotating stone through which he pushed snow and ice to
form a mound which almost touched the sky. ... Dolph ****
informs us: "... we cannot find evidence that Earth's climate
grew cold before the advent of an ice age; ... on the contrary,
climate grew colder only after the ice arrived and only to the
extent that the ice itself refrigerated the Earth.... Obviously
the perma-frost accumulated from the bottom upward -- not by
freezing from the top downward." What this means is that the
detritus which forms the permafrost was frozen as it was being
laid down. ... What I am claiming is that the snow, ice, and
sleet came from the axial vortex when it was severed for the
last time because that is where a vast quantity of terrestrial
moisture had been stored.
... The Muria [tribe of] India tell without ambiguity how [the
polar god] Mahapurub turned the world topsy-turvy. ... [The Hopi
said] "The world, with no one to control it, teetered off
balance, spun around crazily, then rolled over twice. Mountains
plunged into seas with a great splash, seas and lakes sloshed
over the land; and as the world spun through cold and lifeless
space it froze into solid ice."
====================postby Lloyd » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:04 am
__ANTARCTICA
- Grey Cloud wrote: Does Antarctica Have A Hidden Layer Of
Meteorites Below Its Surface?
HTML http://www.universetoday.com/127492/does-antarctica-have-a-hidden-layer-of-meteorites-below-its-surface.
- Did yous see my recent post, Huge Canyon and Crater in
Antarctica, at
HTML http://www.thunderbolts.inf
o/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1462&p=111136#p111136?
The crater seems to have been discovered in 2006 under a km of
ice in Wilkesland, while the canyon, over twice as long as the
Grand Canyon, but not quite as deep, is in Princess Elizabeth
land[?], and was written up last October or so in Geology
magazine, I think. The canyon and a fairly large lake are also
under a similar depth of ice. The crater is larger than any
other known crater in the world at about 250 miles in diameter,
but it's only about half as wide as the Somali Basin crater that
Mike Fischer located off east Africa.
- The electric charge on bolides comes from friction in the
atmosphere, as Charles Chandler explains in great detail, not
from electric currents in space, as is theorized but never
explained in any detail. The charge does build up enough to
cause thermonuclear explosions, either from impacting Earth's
surface, or from internal detonation as an airburst. The charge
is great enough to carve out rilles near the point of impact.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:20 am
__GC CRITICISMS
... Atlantis. Why would Solon (Athenian) or the Egyptian priest
be using a Cretan script?
- The Oera Linda book, while very interesting, is of disputed
provenance. 'Altland' = old land and has nothing to do with
Atlantis (the book makes no such claims or inference). If memory
serves, it was in the North Sea or possibly the Baltic. There
were elephants and coconuts on Atlantis (according to Plato).
Incidentally, there is a similar English book known variously as
The Kolbrin, The Book of Kolbrin and the Kolbrin Bible, which
contains the story (twice) of something called 'the Destroyer'
which arrives in the sky and destroys much of life on Earth.
- Aquarius is not a water sign, it is an air sign.
- The biblical flood story is a straight lift of the Sumerian
story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Mount Ararat was not called
Ararat in ancient times. Wasn't the OT Ark of equal length and
width? In the Phoenician version, they, a sea-faring people,
take the vessel out for sea trials before the flood and it's
dimensions are more realistic.
- Khem is as far as I know the 'black land'. Egyptian 'Thoth',
Greek 'Hermes' and Hebrew 'Cush' have no known etymological or
philological connection.
- If you are going to use the OT as a source then I suggest the
Septuagint as it is the earliest version or at least compare
various versions. The KJV is probably the worst
translation-wise.
- Virgin. This is a complicated or complex subject. It can refer
to the constellation Virgo and also the universe or the soul for
example. e.g. the virgin mother-goddess (the universe) gives
birth but remains in her original condition - think closed
system.
- "fountains of the great deep". What would Sumerians/Hebrews
know of mid-ocean rift zones? Or if they did know, how would a
people living in southern Iraq/Middle East know they had opened?
To me 'great deep' would refer to space.
- I don't subscribe to Plate Tectonic theory. To me it makes
more sense that earthquakes cause the cracks rather than the
cracks causing the quakes. Could someone explain the mechanism
for the plates pushing against each other? If the Earth is
revolving on its axis at over 1,000 mph then would not
centrifugal force pull them apart? ...
- CATASTROPHISM WEAKEST POINTS. On the science side there is a
necessity to accept some mainstream science whilst at the same
time rejecting some. On the ancient textual side there is the
infuriating lack of dates, the sheer volume and diversity of the
sources and the dubious translations. ...
- Not sure where you are getting the idea that this was one-off
event. The ancient textual evidence points to at least two.
Science points to several. e.g. Middle Bronze-Age collapse and
Late Bronze-Age collapse. The MBA and LBA collapses happened in
the eastern Med/ME, China and northern Europe. They may well
have affected other regions, e.g. the Americas and Africa but
scholars tend to not mention these.
- Rather than global flood I tend to think more in terms of
global flooding. e.g. There are three separate floods in Greek
myth - of Ogyges, Dardanus and Deucalion. Ogyges was something
which happened to Attica; Dardanus lived on Samothrace and ended
up in Anatolia, giving his name to Dardania and founding the
original city of Troy; Deucalion is Thessaly and is corroborated
by modern geology. The plain of Thessaly is a dried up lake bed.
Lake was surrounded by moutains, quake split the mountains (Vale
of Tempe?), water exited. ...
- Never yet come across an ancient text referring to Saturn as
the first sun. In fact I rarely come across mentions of Saturn
at all. The main actors appear to be Venus, Mars, Jupiter and
the Sun (this one). El is the Phoenician(?) word for Lord.
- My current focus of study in on the LBA collapse in the
eastern Med/ME because a) there are more sources and more
English translations available and b) it can be tied to actual
known historical events if not concrete dates.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:22 pm
__GC CRITICISMS REPLIES
... 'Altland' = old land ... LK: It could have been the land
between Britain and Europe that flooded, could it not?
- GC: Aquarius is not a water sign, it is an air sign. LK: But I
think Gray was saying that the Great Flood started when the Sun
was in Aquarius. ...
- LK: ... I'm pretty sure the ark was said to be much longer
than wide. ...
- LK: I agree the great deep probably referred to space. I had a
thread here about Barbara Walker's book, Women's Encyclopedia of
Myths and Secrets. The deep or great deep was said to refer to
space, or the heavens, and was thought of as an ocean. I'm not
sure about the fountains, but they may have referred to the
fountains or splashes of meteors from space hitting the
terrestrial ocean. Gordon says the Hebrew word, matar, likely
meant meteors.
- GC: I don't subscribe to Plate Tectonic theory. ... LK: There
is no subduction, except that plates can slide over each other,
i.e. North America over the Pacific. It looks like subduction at
the plate boundary, but the Pacific plate isn't subducting, it's
moving horizontally under North America. Charles Chandler
explained how the plates can continue to ratchet over each other
via electrical tidal forces. The Shock Dynamics video at
HTML http://newgeology.us
shows how an asteroid impact likely broke
up the Supercontinent and caused rapid continental drift.
- GC: ... the Rockies and Andes are new. ... LK: All of the
mountain ranges are new, from about 4,000 years ago, while the
Flood likely occurred less than 4,400 years ago. ...
- GC: ... global flooding. ... LK: A lot of smaller floods
occurred after the Great Flood. The Mediterranean Sea I think
would have flooded shortly after the Shock Dynamics event. The
Black Sea likely flooded after that. The Grand and Hopi Lakes
breached and carved the Grand Canyon soon after the Shock
Dynamics event, I think. The other inland lakes in the western
U.S. drained around then too, I presume. ...
- GC: ... I rarely come across mentions of Saturn at all. ...
LK: The Sun in the various languages initially referred to
Saturn. That applies to Sol, Helios, Ra and others. And I just
read today that "Cronos [or Kronos - the Greek name of Saturn]
is called El by the Phoenicians." [W.A.Heidel, The Day of
Yahweh, p470]. I read that in Cardona's book, God Star. And the
book shows that Saturn was the main god of the ancients.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am
__GC CHRONOLOGY
... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one
approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE.
I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the
Earth/science side.
- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been
12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as
there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who
didn't completely collapse. ...
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the
LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this
clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous
incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know
in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent
with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP
HTML http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Dec 13, 2015
6:02 pm
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