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#Post#: 109947--------------------------------------------------
Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: AJJCSN26
Date: February 16, 2026, 10:12 am
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Hello - really wondering if I could get some advice re the
above as am wits end.
One of Company fleet vehicles was being used by 6 of us working
in 3 pairs, to clean and clear a flat pending the arrival of a
new occupant. I have provided the Met with the contact details
of the 6 drivers, copy of my phone records when I made calls to
try and establish who was driving at the precise time that the
camera flashed and recorded 25mph in a 20mph zone, copy of the
log that we hold to check who is driving what car (The log
records who has the car on a daily basis not per hour or
minute)and a copy of the document confirming the new occupant
moving in date - a day after the offence. All to no avail. The
second reminder again invited us to give name of driver. I
replied to that saying it was impossible to know which of the 6
drivers was driving and we have done our very best to ascertain
who was driving at that exact time. I have now had a third reply
asking exactly the same. I cannot give a name when I don't know
which of the 6 of us was behind the wheel. Would be so grateful
for any advice as to how to respond. Thank you
#Post#: 109951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: 666
Date: February 16, 2026, 10:34 am
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Who is the Registered Keeper?
If not you, in what capacity are you involved?
You say "we" received letters. Who "we"?
#Post#: 109952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: JustLoveCars
Date: February 16, 2026, 10:37 am
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--- Quote from: AJJCSN26 link ---
>
> The log records who has the car on a daily basis not per hour
or minute
>
--- End Quote ---
Then the log records who is the person keeping the vehicle?
#Post#: 109954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: AJJCSN26
Date: February 16, 2026, 10:54 am
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The car registered keeper is a company and I am the
administrator. The log confirms which of the 6 cars registered
to the Company are being driven by which person. On the day in
question there were 6 of us using one car
#Post#: 109956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: 666
Date: February 16, 2026, 11:21 am
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--- Quote from: AJJCSN26 link ---
>
> The log confirms which of the 6 cars registered to the Company
are being driven by which person.
>
--- End Quote ---
Clearly it does not, or you would not be in this position.
You should be aware that "Where a body corporate is guilty of an
offence under this section and the offence is proved to have
been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be
attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager,
secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a
person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as
well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable
to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."
This means that (1) you personally may be charged with the
offence of failing to provide driver details, and (2) you need a
better logging system.
For the present, does the log for the day list a single person?
If so, I'd suggest you nominate him (or her) as the person
keeping the vehicle.
Others may have different suggestions.
#Post#: 109958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: February 16, 2026, 11:33 am
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I’m yet to be convinced that a person assigned a company vehicle
for a few hours becomes “the person keeping the vehicle” in
terms of the statute.
#Post#: 109959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 16, 2026, 11:48 am
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--- Quote ---
> I’m yet to be convinced that a person assigned a company
vehicle for a few hours becomes “the person keeping the vehicle”
in terms of the statute.
--- End Quote ---
So am I.
Doing what you have done so far will not satisfy the police.
They will not make enquiries based on the information you have
provided.
If you do not provide the name of single person whom you believe
may have been driving, the Company will be prosecuted for
failing to do so.
There is statutory defence which states that a person (or
company) shall not be convicted of an offence if he “…did not
know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained
who the driver of the vehicle was”. However, where the defendant
charged with an offence is a “body corporate” they can only take
advantage of that defence if “…no record was kept of the persons
who drove the vehicle and that the failure to keep a record was
reasonable”.
The Company did keep records, but it seems from your description
that they were inadequate (to show who was driving at any
particular time).
As I see it the choices are these:
- To name the individual to whom the vehicle was logged out.
- For the Company to plead guilty.
- For the Company to defend the charge.
To successfully defend the charge The Company will have to show
(to the court's satisfaction that "on the balance of
probabilities", that it was not reasonable to keep more detailed
records than those you have and, despite exercising reasonable
diligence, you could still not identify the driver.
A conviction for the Company will see hefty fine but no
endorsement or points (a Company cannot see an endorsement
imposed as it has no driving record). For an individual the fine
will be smaller, but it carries six points and an endorsement
code (MS90) which will see considerably increased insurance
premiums for up to five years.
#Post#: 109961--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: AJJCSN26
Date: February 16, 2026, 12:06 pm
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With all due respect, for the day in question all 6 of us were
on the log as using the car. If 6 drivers were driving the car
throughout the morning how are we supposed to know which one of
us was driving the car at 10.02am. We were all in and out of the
car carrying assorted bits of furniture, builders debris,
cleaning equipment and none of us paid any attention to who was
where at any particular time. Would it be normal behaviour to
clock people in and out when we were all working together to
clear this flat? Of course not - that's not real life.
As all 6 of us were nominated drivers and we do not know who was
driving, not only would it be a lie to pick one person but it
would be unfair.
The log does not record by the minute who was driving. In real
life again this would never happen.
How does a Company plead guilty please. There doesn't seem to be
any space on the S172 to answer in this way. Or does this only
happen if the Company is prosecuted
#Post#: 109968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: February 16, 2026, 12:57 pm
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> Doing what you have done so far will not satisfy the police.
They will not make enquiries based on the information you have
provided.
--- End Quote ---
Whether or not the police are satisfied has no bearing on
whether an offence was committed, or whether a defence is
available, only on who is prosecuted.
We have seen cases where the police have sent s. 172 notices to
multiple potential drivers.
--- Quote ---
> If you do not provide the name of single person whom you
believe may have been driving, the Company will be prosecuted
for failing to do so.
--- End Quote ---
That is very likely.
--- Quote ---
>
> The Company did keep records, but it seems from your
description that they were inadequate (to show who was driving
at any particular time).
--- End Quote ---
Interpreting the legislation purposively, an inadequate record
is not a "record of the persons driving the vehicle". However,
if the log is essentially meaningless, then the first question
would seem to be whether the failure to keep a [meaningful] log
was reasonable.
From the OP's version of events, my next question would be
whether it was somebody's birthday, as the suggestion that all 6
people who were in the vehicle during the day in question would
have driven it, and that a minute by minute log would be
required to determine who was driving at the material time,
suggests that they must have been playing musical chairs.
Because, other than children's party games, in real life, this
does not happen.
If the vehicle was used separately by 3 pairs of people - would
all 3 pairs have used it by 10.02am? Is there no clue in the
time and location that could narrow it down?
#Post#: 109972--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re Genuine Do Not know who was driving to complete S172
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: February 16, 2026, 1:52 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Would it be normal behaviour to clock people in and out when
we were all working together to clear this flat? Of course not -
that's not real life.
--- End Quote ---
We can only advise on the law as it is – not as you think it
ought to be or would like it to be.
The law says that the “person keeping the vehicle” has a duty to
provide the driver’s details. From your description it seems the
Company is that “person”. There are defences available to the
allegation as I have explained.
The logical outcome of your claim (that “real life” means that
the driver in the circumstances you describe cannot be
identified) will see the driver(s) able to commit offences with
impunity.
--- Quote ---
> …all 6 of us were nominated drivers…
--- End Quote ---
With equal due respect, I see no point whatsoever in doing that,
at least as far as this issue is concerned.
--- Quote ---
> How does a Company plead guilty please. There doesn't seem to
be any space on the S172 to answer in this way. Or does this
only happen if the Company is prosecuted.
--- End Quote ---
It will only happen if the Company is prosecuted. The police
have six months from the date of the offence to bring
proceedings and I am quite certain that will happen if you
maintain your stance.
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