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#Post#: 10647--------------------------------------------------
PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: Driver86
Date: November 19, 2023, 3:39 pm
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Hello all.
The driver visited a hospital when they parked in a bay which
turned out to be for Blue Badge holders only. They did not see
any signage as they drove into the bay. After they found the
PCN, they looked around for signage but could not see where it
is informing them that this is a blue badge bay.
Here is the front and back of PCN
HTML https://ibb.co/kByrsww
HTML https://ibb.co/r3S7DJM
They did notice as they reversed out that there was a disabled
sign on the floor, not very well painted and not easily seen by
oncoming traffic.
The evidence Gemini parking solutions have provided shows a sign
post somewhere, but not with the car in sight of the signage -
so it is anyones guess where this signpost was.
HTML https://ibb.co/yV3LCgN
HTML https://ibb.co/YXTCBLH
HTML https://ibb.co/Z2Kw63M
I appealed the PCN on the grounds that signage was inadequete
and also that the vehicle was used to transport someone who is
considered disabled (long term health condition). I also
undertook my own investigation on 10th October and found that
they had recently erected signposts where the vehicle was
parked. Note - in Geminis evidence photos this signage is not
present where the vehicle was parked. See my own photo here:
HTML https://ibb.co/yQDY7Hb
I've attached the appeal I sent them to this post.
They responded with the following reply
HTML https://ibb.co/GTg9Lqd
As you'll notice, they havn't addressed my coments, and have not
given me the code I require to appeal to BPA/ adjudication -
does anyone know why this might be? and advice how to proceed
here?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 10763--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: November 20, 2023, 4:13 pm
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--- Quote from: Driver86 link ---
>
> The driver visited a hospital when they parked in a bay which
turned out to be for Blue Badge holders only.
>
--- End Quote ---
If an occupant of the vehicle was a patient, then speaking to
the PALS team at said hospital would be a good first step.
Your references to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act
and keeper liability in the appeal suggest a slight
misunderstanding of how that process works. What has been
received appears to be a windscreen ticket, aka a 'Notice to
Driver' - they are not claiming the keeper is liable, as the PCN
has been issued to the driver. Paragraph 9 to which you refer,
specifies the requirements for a Notice to Keeper, issued by
post, so is not relevant here.
I imagine they have sent the response that they have on the
basis that they have issued a charge to the driver, but instead
have received a response from someone claiming* to be the
registered keeper. *I say 'claiming' here not because I dispute
that you are the keeper, but because at this stage, Gemini have
no confirmation that you are the registered keeper, other than
your say so.
You may wish to remind them that the BPA Code of Practice
requires them to respond to appeals from drivers and keepers.
Have you received any Notice to Keeper through the post?
#Post#: 10799--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: November 21, 2023, 4:01 am
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As above, Plan A with private parking notices should always be
the landowner, they own the land, set the rules and employ the
parasite as their agent to enforce them.
Additionally with NHS parking the guidance for hospitals makes
it clear that such notices should only be used to deter abuse of
the parking and not to penalise genuine users and innocent
mistakes, or issues arising from the hospital itself (such as
over running appointments).
#Post#: 11241--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: Driver86
Date: November 25, 2023, 1:57 pm
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Spoke to PALS said they can't help due to it being a
contractual/legal matter between driver and the company.
I havnt received a notice to owner. I'll send them an email
reminding them that they should be responding to keeper and
driver appeal.
Here's what it says in the letter:
2. If you are representing the driver we require a signed and
dated statement from the driver of the vehicle confirming that
you are authorised to appeal on his/her behalf; this needs to be
an original signature and not a photocopy or a stamp. The
statement MUST contain the drivers FULL NAME (Forename and
Surname) and a valid FULL SERVICEABLE ADDRESS.
Is this a load of rubbish?
#Post#: 11252--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 25, 2023, 4:12 pm
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(4)The notice [to keeper] must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address
for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the
keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the
relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is
the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning
with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given.
NTD - issued 25 Sept.
IMO, the latest date for delivery of NTK is, sorry was, 20 Nov.
It is immaterial for the purposes of PoFA that an appeal against
the NTD was made, considered, responded to(with extended dates
for action).
PoFA says what is says. They're too late to hold the keeper
liable.
#Post#: 11259--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: Nosy Parker
Date: November 26, 2023, 2:08 am
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1. Gemini is not a member of the BPA but of the rival and even
worse IPC. So the BPA Code of Practice is irrelevant. The IPC
appeal scheme doesn't use appeal codes. You can access the IPC
Code of Practice here -
HTML https://www.theipc.info/publications.
2. For reasons known only to itself, Gemini doesn't bother to
transfer liability to the keeper but instead refuses to handle
keeper appeals unless the keeper identifies the driver.
3. Reasonable minds can disagree over whether it's worth the
bother of trying to force Gemini to engage with the appeals
process as they've lost the ability to transfer liability to the
keeper anyway.
4. The PALS cop-out is a disgrace. In your shoes, I would
escalate this to hospital complaints department pointing out
that the hospital is responsible for the actions of its parking
contractor. As with all communications relating to this case,
do not identify the driver.
5. If the hospital doesn't make it go away, you are likely to
get a lot of demands for payment from Gemini and its debt
collectors which you don't need to take seriously, because they
can't make you pay anything except by suing in the County Court
and winning the case - which they will struggle to do as they
failed to transfer liability to the keeper and there arguably
isn't any liability to transfer due to the inadequate signage.
If they escalate to the point of issuing a formal letter of
claim (aka letter before claim or letter before action) giving
30 days advance warning of commencement of legal proceedings,
you will need to take it seriously.
Come back for more advice if the hospital doesn't do the right
thing.
#Post#: 11271--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: November 26, 2023, 4:53 am
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Nosy Parker, regarding #2, the appeal is attached as a word doc
at the bottom of the opening post.
OP, I agree with everything Nosy Parker says. Keep on at the
hospital.
#Post#: 11337--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: Driver86
Date: November 26, 2023, 3:52 pm
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Thanks for your advice.
I've read through the IPC code of practice and it does appear
they insist on the driver only. The appeals response I have
attached in my first message
HTML https://ibb.co/GTg9Lqd
, can this
be assumed to be the NTK? It doesnt say as much, and im not 100%
certain if it meets all the requirements outlined in the IPC
code of practice. I've attached the NTK code of practice to this
post.
Just wondering, what is the risk of identifying driver to
appeal? We have the evidence that regard8ng signage and any
defence will be based on the same regardless who was driving?
I have until tomorrow to decide to appeal with driver or wait on
NTK, if 28th november is the deadline since their last
correspondence.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 11340--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: November 26, 2023, 5:25 pm
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--- Quote from: Driver86 link ---
>
> Just wondering, what is the risk of identifying driver to
appeal?
>
--- End Quote ---
The main 'risk' is that it reduces the number of potential
defences available. All of one's eggs would be in the 'signage'
basket - if that defence failed, there'd be no others available.
Present two defence points, and only one needs to succeed for
you to win.
I'll try to explain the whole keeper/driver issue as briefly as
possible... Private parking charges are based on contract law.
The contract (if one exists) is between the parking company and
the driver. The registered keeper of the vehicle does not enter
the contract. However, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms
Act 2012
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted<br
/>(PoFA) provides a mechanism for private parking companies to
recover these contractual charges from the keeper, if they don't
know who was driving, and if they comply with certain
requirements.
In this case, as Nosy Parker and H C Andersen both note, Gemini
have not complied with these requirements, and so are unable to
recover the charges from the registered keeper.
#Post#: 11352--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Parked in a disabled bay
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 27, 2023, 3:05 am
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OP, you seem to be wanting to freelance this. Why?
You have been informed of the procedure and yet you still refer
to driver and appeals.
I am a cynical old **** (AKA sceptical/challenging) and I'm less
than convinced by the account regarding seeing the disabled sign
when reversing out of the space but not when driving in. Of
course you could formalise a complaint to the hospital, but IMO
only if you are absolutely certain of events...but how could you
be, unless you were the driver? You even have the NTD! Could you
pursue a complaint with sufficient conviction NB. IMO, this has
nothing to do with the creditor's procedures per se but simply
whether the events occurred and whether even if they did as
alleged by Gemini, this is in keeping with the Trust's
obligations?
Alternatively, the procedural straight bat is to submit a
Subject Access Request to Gemini requiring all personal data
they hold on you. This should be their reply to your 'appeal',
their request to DVLA for your RK details and a copy of the
Notice to Keeper. Ideally you want them to admit - because they
cannot produce - that a NTK was not sent in time.
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