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#Post#: 104198--------------------------------------------------
Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus stop
Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Pauldon3576
Date: December 31, 2025, 2:52 pm
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Hi Good Evening & A Happy New Year To All!
Royal Borough of Kingston very kindly sent me a Christmas
present when I dropped my son and his girlfriend off the other
night to their Christmas party - a £140 PCN!.
At approximately 22.22pm I pulled in to a bus stop on Clarence
street (which I have done in the past to the exact same bus
stop) to let them out, was there for 15 seconds and then
returned home.
It was poorly lit there despite what the night vision camera
shows and I had no chance of seeing any of the signage.
And I was not expecting to receive a PCN.
Is this PCN something I can and should challenge?
I have uploaded, all of the forms, pictures, and street view
link below, and would appreciate some help and advice.
PCN
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/rGCtv52_xl.jpg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/uB58d9t_xl.jpg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/OFKxrH1_xl.jpg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/tvJcBKF_xl.jpg
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/17BXykV_xl.jpg
Streetview (although this does appear to be out of date, as no
scaffolding is there anymore)
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SVFiaweSmPPwmrx5
#Post#: 104199--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:03 pm
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Totally bang to rights if the no stopping sign is there as it
was.
Our member Hippo may have something on other matters.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/54usS26sbaw7E7m7A
HTML https://i.ibb.co/LX7bY63c/k-ezgif-com-optimize.gif
#Post#: 104200--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Pauldon3576
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:13 pm
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Ok, not good. No chance I would have seen that pulling over!
There's me thinking I shouldn't stop on the double yellows to
let them out!
Should I await some news from Hippo?
#Post#: 104201--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:21 pm
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You're fine on yellow lines as alighting/boarding is an
exemption and it's a no waiting not a no stopping restriction.
But watch out for red routes.
The broad yellow line in the bus stop puts you on notice it's a
no stopping clearway but it must also have a no stopping plate.
Almost all London bus stops are so marked and many major ones
have CCTV.
Hippo is around so wait for him to check paperwork etc.
We had another case here but presumably it was paid.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-47j-stopped-on-restricted-bus-stop/
#Post#: 104203--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:28 pm
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I will take a look tomorrow to see if the No Stopping sign is
correct. Nice trip to the Kings Tun indeed.
#Post#: 104204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Pauldon3576
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:33 pm
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Many Thanks Hippo & A Happy New Year To You & All.
The broad yellow line which should have alerted me is one I was
not aware of but will be now!
I'm still not happy that I would have never seen the sign in the
poor lighting there at night.
And my son said he was going to take the train but I offered (as
any Dad would!) to take him!
#Post#: 104205--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Pauldon3576
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:35 pm
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Oh dear, and excuse my poor spell checking, just seen it! Should
know better as I was born there too!! End the year on a
high....!!
#Post#: 104206--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 31, 2025, 3:48 pm
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Wait until tomorrow. I will do you a draft.
#Post#: 104227--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 1, 2026, 10:16 am
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I checked the sign today and is missing the red XX on the
roundel. So, try this:
Signage is inadequate and does not comply with the law.
· The upright sign at the location does not include the
prescribed "no stopping" roundel symbol, and its background was
white instead of yellow. This contravenes the requirements as
clearly specified in Traffic Signs Regulations and General
Directions 2016 (TSRGD):
· Part 1, Prescription of signs, Regulation 3 (1) states: “A
traffic sign for conveying a warning, information, requirement,
restriction or prohibition of a description specified in these
Regulations is of a prescribed size, colour and type if it
complies with all applicable requirements provided for in these
Regulations.”
· Schedule 3, Part 2, Item 4, Diagram 642 prescribes the signage
content for Bus Stop Clearways, specifically the inclusion of
the no stopping roundel.
· Schedule 4, Part 2, paragraph 2 states: "The sign must have a
yellow background and black border as shown in blank diagram 1
in Part 1." TSRGD provides that a traffic sign is only of a
prescribed type if it meets all applicable requirements,
including size, colour and symbol. The yellow background is an
essential legal component of a sign that includes a symbol from
Schedule 4, Part 3, such as the “no stopping” roundel. White
background signs are prescribed for a completely different set
of uses under Part 4 (e.g., parking or loading bays) and convey
a different regulatory meaning. Furthermore, under TSRGD
Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 1(2)(b) an upright sign for a bus
stop clearway must include the "stopping prohibited" symbol.
· Any deviation from the prescribed sign design — including the
omission of a symbol or substitution of colour — must be
expressly authorised by the Secretary of State under Section 64
of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. No such authorisation
has been provided. These are not minor defects. The law does not
permit informal substitutions or approximations for prescribed
signs. A sign that does not conform to TSRGD cannot lawfully
convey a restriction. Accordingly, no contravention occurred.
Length of the bay
The bus stop clearway is of considerable length, yet contains
only one upright sign. This fails to meet visibility and
placement requirements under the Traffic Signs Manual (TSM) and
TSRGD.
• TSM Chapter 1, paragraph 5.4.4 advises: “Regulatory signs must
be placed as near as practicable to the start of a restriction.”
• TSM Chapter 3, paragraph 13.24.9 specifically addresses longer
bus bays: “Where the bus stop marking has been extended to
accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount
the sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these
circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the kerb,
might be required near the centre of the bay.”
Height and orientation and visibility
The sign is not clearly visible even from 5–10 metres away, and
its placement fails to convey a clear restriction as required by
statutory guidance.
• TSM Chapter 3, 13.24.9: “Upright signs that indicate a
prohibition of stopping normally face oncoming traffic as it is
an offence to stop to read the sign.” This sign is angled away
from the line of approach and cannot be read safely or clearly
by a driver. It therefore fails to comply with TSM guidance and
does not serve its intended purpose.
• TSM Chapter 3, section 1.8.2, Table 1-1 – Minimum clear
visibility distances: “For roads with speeds up to 20 mph, the
minimum clear visibility distance in a 20mph zone is 45 metres.
This sign is not visible from even 5 to 10 metres away, let
alone 45 metres. This directly contradicts the visibility
standards set out in TSM and severely limits the sign’s ability
to provide timely notice of a restriction to drivers. This
failure renders the restriction inadequately conveyed and,
consequently, unenforceable in law.
Cases in support
• Matthew Mathai (2240426053): Appeal allowed due to length of
bus stop clearway, only one sign and signage not clearly
visible. The importance of adequately visible signage in bus
stop clearway was emphasised in Sean Hurley v London Borough of
Camden (2210017951, 16 November 2020) to which I have had
regard. … The single sign is placed towards the very end of the
clearway, from the perspective of a motorist approaching it.
There is a very considerable distance from the start of the
clearway to the sign itself. The sign would barely be visible,
if at all, from there. The guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual
has not been heeded. Based on the evidence in this case and with
that guidance in mind, I do not find, on the balance of
probabilities, that the signage was adequate.
• Sean Hurley (2210017951): Appeal allowed due to inadequate
signage ‘not in the correct position and visible’. Its
visibility is even more important where the prohibition is
simply on “stopping” and where the motorist will therefore have
very little time to see it, let alone look for it”
• Rafiuddin Syed (2240376545): First, the Appellant's
representative has drawn my attention to the decision of
Adjudicator Walsh, case (2240426053) I find that this case is
applicable to the one I am deciding now, the Adjudicator
recorded as follows when citing from Chapter 3 of the Traffic
Signs Manual at 13.2.9, which states that: The sign should
normally be located near the centre of the bay or mounted on the
post that supports the bus stop sign to diagram 970, 973.2 or
973.3 (S11-2-76 and 77). Where the bus stop marking has been
extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be
preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of the bay.
In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to
the kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay." “this
bus stop clearway is notably long at 150ft in length. In those
circumstances, the Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, para
13.24.9), suggests a sign in the middle of the clearway or two
signs, to ensure that the sign can readily be seen by a
motorist. In this case, I find on the balance of probabilities
that the single sign is placed towards the very end of the
clearway, from the perspective of a motorist approaching it.
There is a very considerable distance from the start of the
clearway to the sign itself. The sign would barely be visible,
if at all, from there. The guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual
has not been heeded. Based on the evidence in this case and with
that guidance in mind, I do not find, on the balance of
probabilities, that the signage was adequate. In those
circumstances the contravention is not proved. Thirdly, the bus
stop in this case is 138ft and the sign plate is at the far end.
Considering the above , please cancel the PCN forthwith.
Finally, I put you to strict proof that the camera used had a
valid certificate.
#Post#: 104243--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Upon Thames PCN 47j Stopped on a restricted bus
stop Location – Clarence Street
DIR By: Pauldon3576
Date: January 1, 2026, 1:50 pm
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Hi Hippocrates,
You are indeed a gentleman. I was wondering about visibility!
I am about to make representation online but I need enter the
grounds for representation. I cannot get past this screen
without selecting something. Would I be correct in choosing "The
contravention did not occur" ? Or would you advise otherwise?
Please see link below.
HTML https://cdn.imgpile.com/f/a2PcsWv_xl.jpg
Best Regards
P
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