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#Post#: 101728--------------------------------------------------
Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 9, 2025, 10:42 am
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Hi all,
I can see that this road is popular here and I have just
received my PCN this morning for driving through the 'Bus Gate'
lane of this road.
I'm not from this area and was following Waze which didn't alert
me of any traffic restrictions or otherwise, the road was empty
so I had no other cars to follow, I've never seen or heard of a
'Bus Gate' only the Red bus only lanes; Hilariously my CCTV
footage also shows the driver behind me doing the same thing and
likely the one behind them too.
Looking on Google Maps I notice that these lanes used to be red
bus only lanes and then were changed to the much less
easy-to-spot bus gate design, can't help but think that was
intentional especially with the BBC news reporting they make
1.8m a year from this road alone.
Unfortunately for me I can't blame the weather as the CCTV shows
it was a nice sunny day although you can see me slow down to the
give way line clearly confused at this junction but not
realising I needed to move to the middle of the road; I can see
some appeals based on signage but realistically do these help my
case or is this something I should just pay in this situation?
(Fortunately I think there was traffic on the way back so I
likely followed the other cars through the restriction or went a
different route home, will let you know if I get another
separate PCN for the other direction).
PCN:
[img]
HTML https://imgpile.com/p/TVVcQJF#fYMenrZ[/img]
HTML https://imgpile.com/p/TVVcQJF#fYMenrZ
Thank you.
#Post#: 101737--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: fraser.mitchell Date: December 9, 2025, 11:15 am
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Sorry, but we do need to see the PCN, and your reg number too,
which is on it, However always blank-out name and address. Your
registration is in view to all and sundry as you drive around,
so it's not a big secret. See here: -
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
#Post#: 101743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 9, 2025, 12:02 pm
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[quote author=Incandescent link=topic=9092.msg101737#msg101737
date=1765300546]
Sorry, but we do need to see the PCN, and your reg number too,
which is on it, However always blank-out name and address. Your
registration is in view to all and sundry as you drive around,
so it's not a big secret. See here: -
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
[/quote]
Sorry I missed that thread but I've added a photo of the PCN.
#Post#: 101765--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: fraser.mitchell Date: December 9, 2025, 5:08 pm
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So here it is, the dreaded bus gate complex on Camrose Avenue: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/sYoqSnwqUMH3mbyeA
and warning sign of width restriction on exiting the roundabout
onto Taunton Way: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/UqLwda7hWECf1pZ99
and another one
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/c4itGkFf1QESrFp36
and yet another one
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/8TCgeyQDm3PKqcaf6
But what there isn't, is any clue that a short bus gate is
ahead. For me this is a serious omission, but the council earn
so much money from this restriction they are not going to do
anything about it. Of course most people who drive along here
regularly know about it, many of them getting to know by
receiving a PCN !
All I can suggest is you have a look at the London Tribunals
Statutory Register using the location as the search argument to
see what appeals there are and how many are successful. The
signage is plain enough, so finding a robust appeal argument is
going to be difficult. Wait a bit for others to comment, but
don't miss the deadline for the discount if you're minded to
pay-up.
#Post#: 101781--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: John U.K. Date: December 10, 2025, 1:26 am
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Have a look at this thread
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-code-33e-used-a-bus-gate-camrose-ave/msg94716/#msg94716
There are plenty of threads on this forum for this location. You
can search this forum using the search box (top r-h corner of
this and every page) and 'Camrose Avenue' as the search term.
Please also post the rest of the PCN, in case of errors in the
'small print'.
#Post#: 101835--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 10, 2025, 6:33 am
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I've looked through many of the threads but it seems this Bus
Gate is constantly changing over the years, annoying had it been
a red 'bus lane' I would know not to use it as I am used to
seeing these in London and signposted as such, I have never
heard of the 'Bus Gate' term nor is it mentioned in the Highway
Code to my knowledge.
I don't recall seeing any warnings about the 'Bus Gate' or CCTV
enforcement only the width restriction with no clear indication
that I needed to move to the middle of the road until I was
literally stuck in the left lane.
For some reason I cannot upload the back of the PCN to imgpile
as its blocked but I uploaded it here:
HTML https://postimg.cc/fkHBdsMj
Please let me know if I have any grounds to appeal.
Thanks!
#Post#: 101910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 10, 2025, 1:06 pm
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Just to update my own post here, I'm reading up of the DFT
circular that seems to reference these bus gates.
One point I note is section 9.7.3.  
A bus gate is a short length of bus‑only street. On a
two‑way road, access may be
restricted to buses in one direction only, with all traffic
permitted in the opposite direction, i.e.
similar to a contraflow lane, but too short to be signed as
such. In this case, that part of the
carriageway reserved for buses should be separated from the
opposing flow of traffic by a
traffic island and not by a continuous line marking to diagram
1049A (see Figure 9-25). Bus
gates are often used to remove through traffic from a road but
allow full access. They effectively
create a “no through road” for all traffic other than buses. The
bus gate may be located either
at a junction or part way along a road, and may be used by other
vehicles where permitted by
the order. If a bus gate is placed on a road that was previously
a signed route or was used by
significant through traffic, consideration should be given to
providing or changing directional
signing to guide prohibited traffic to use the preferred
alternative route, as described in 5.1.2.
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
I'd argue that the lack of warning about the Bus Gate, the
incorrectly painted arrows directing you to the Bus Gate lane
and the update from the previous design (which was in use up
until 2018 as I have screenshots showing this) shows that this
consideration has not been taken.
#Post#: 102010--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Hippocrates Date: December 11, 2025, 7:12 am
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HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-code-33e-used-a-bus-gate-camrose-ave/msg94716/#msg94716
Plus see the 1st link in my profile re the PCN.
#Post#: 102021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 11, 2025, 7:45 am
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Thank you Hippocrates.
I have read that thread and can see the appeal is ongoing (seems
its along the same timeframe only their issue occurred at night
and mine during the day).
My main argument is that the guidance is not clear, I had no
idea what a bus gate is or whether it was enforced on a Sunday
(no buses run this route on that day from what I can find).
Also according to the CCTV the 'contravention' apparently occurs
as I pull up to the give way line, technically speaking
shouldn't it be enforced AFTER I had passed that line?
I'm guessing the first link in your profile is the same in your
signature so
Should I respond with this as a start and see what their
response is?
1. The alleged contravention is not proved because the video
does not show any alleged upright signage passed.
2. I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the
PCN as it is missing mandatory information as provided at Para.
4 (8 ) (v) of
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the
28 day period, an increased charge may be payable.
Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):
(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the
period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
Therefore, it follows that the statement: If you fail to pay the
Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of a
period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this
notice an increased charge of £240 may be payable. adds to the
lack of clarity by its omission. Even on its own, whether the
required information was included or not, it is also arguable
that it conflates the two periods using the word "or" which many
would view as being conjunctive. Furthermore, even if the
statement were to be interpreted disjunctively, there is still
no clarity due to the missing information.
Therefore. please cancel.
Thank you
#Post#: 102380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council - Camrose Avenue 33E
By: Skellum Date: December 14, 2025, 4:55 am
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I have submitted an appeal using the above information, should
my appeal be denied will I be offered the reduced rate still or
expected to pay the full fare?
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