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#Post#: 9881--------------------------------------------------
PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: greentowel
Date: November 12, 2023, 3:33 am
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Hi all,
Coming from pepipoo.com where a moderator suggested I posted
here (original post on pepipoo.com:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=152030)
First time poster, apologies in advance if I do something wrong!
I am gutted as I recently received a penalty charge notice
issued by TfL for stopping at a box junction. This is in the
intersection between Great West Road and Windmill Road, where
there is currently roadworks.
You can see the links to the PCN, pictures and video below. I am
the black car behind the bus.
I was waiting on the traffic lights on Windmill Road behind a
bus to turn left (which is the only thing you can do given the
roadworks), it was only the bus in front of me at the traffic
lights and normally there are 3 lanes available to turn left
(one of them was blocked because of the roadworks, which I
didn't know), so I was pretty certain I would be able to get out
of the box junction when I entered, however the bus stopped at
the traffic lights just after the junction blocking my lane and
leaving me in the box. The bus appeared to be doing a wide turn,
so I didn't think I needed to have a particularly close turn,
but then closed at the last minute and stopped invading the lane
I was going for. I did not have enough clearance between myself
and the bus to make it through the gap between the kerb and the
bus (where my car would have fit), you can see me trying to get
to it on the video but had I continued I would have hit the bus,
essentially I would have had to reverse in the box junction to
be able to turn enough to make it through. Had the bus not
invaded my lane I would have been able to get out of the box
with no issue.
Do I have any grounds to appeal this?
A couple other points I can think of is that the box seems to
extend way beyond the junction, and had the box been just the
size of the junction maybe I would not have ended up stopping on
it. Also, with the roadworks, this is not a junction anymore and
the only way to exit is the direction I was going towards, so I
could not have prevented incoming traffic for going through, but
I am not sure whether that matters.
There is also a lot of irony that a TfL bus made me get a TfL
issued PCN.
Even though more than 14 days have passed from the day of the
notice, because I had to wait for the DVD with the video to
arrive, I am still on the discount period, the DVD arrive on the
9th of November, but the letter is is dated 6th of November, I
am unsure when the discount period will end.
Thank you very much for any help, I really appreciate it!
PCN:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZ39FbkEEJ1ebLWm4fkB5eOOZZ763Ry/
Pictures
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jLqRCXWYUKf9PCXJJ0_7Hfno4bVgYdBp/
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uUS4pSlPWYlSlhuNMKM-1mZd0maFRaRQ/
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxv8euViVZBg53-dvDyqxfG4CmGGrR2P/
Video
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhQRzWMWDdBdolhyF2SUlrtYy1bpPikl/
#Post#: 9882--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: November 12, 2023, 3:47 am
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Copying across my response from pepipoo...
Seems to me you had plenty of room to escape into that left hand
lane. It's only if you are forced to stop in the box by
stationary vehicles that you can be punished.
Suggest drafting representations along the following lines. The
discount period seems already to have expired, in which case
there's no incentive for you not to take this all the way to the
tribunal if TFL reject (which they invariably will).
Dear TFL
I received your PCN ref XXXXXXXXX in respect of stopping in a
box junction.
The Highway Code makes clear that you must not enter a box
junction unless your exit is clear. The video footage you have
supplied clearly shows my chosen exit lane is clear and
available for me to take. In these circumstances, I am unsure
why you have seen fit to issue me a PCN.
I also understand the specific test set out in the relevant
legislation is whether I caused my vehicle to enter the box
junction so that it had to stop in the box due to the presence
of stationary vehicles. Clearly I did stop my vehicle in the
box, but in my view the video footage is also clear that I did
not have to stop where I did. I could have continued into my
chosen exit lane unimpeded had I wished to.
In these circumstances I look forward to confirmation that you
have cancelled this erroneous PCN.
Yours faithfully,
#Post#: 9883--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: November 12, 2023, 4:49 am
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There is a key case that dictates that the lane you take is the
one that must be clear in this situation i feel that the
contravention is made out as your direction of travel means you
had to stop because of the stationary bus, unless you can argue
that you could in fact manoeuvre so as to pass the bus on the
left.My view is that excepting the motorbike passing you on the
inside, you could
#Post#: 9896--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: greentowel
Date: November 12, 2023, 6:52 am
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Thank you both.
I was trying to go to the left most lane, not the lane where the
bus stop. I indeed had to stop because of the bus, and I could
have manoeuvre to get into my lane, but it would have required
me going on reverse. It felt safer at the time to just wait for
the traffic light to change rather than reversing, particularly
as I had no visibility over the road I had just come from.
Would you mention anything about the bus invading the left most
lane, the size of the box or the roadworks?
#Post#: 9899--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 12, 2023, 7:12 am
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TBH I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this one. Whilst
you may have wanted to enter the left lane exit, the bus stopped
you in the box. I can't see an adjudicator favouring you, but
see what the others say.
#Post#: 9906--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: November 12, 2023, 7:45 am
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Seems I'm the only one who thinks the car could get past! I'll
do some measurements on Google maps when I get home.
#Post#: 9908--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: November 12, 2023, 7:54 am
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--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Seems I'm the only one who thinks the car could get past!
I'll do some measurements on Google maps when I get home.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not quite right, I think it could, but it didn't because of the
bus. What i am not convinced of is an adjudicator accepting that
was not stopped due to the presence of stationary vehicles
#Post#: 9912--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: November 12, 2023, 8:00 am
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It did stop because of stationary vehicles, but my point is that
it didn't have to.
#Post#: 9914--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: November 12, 2023, 8:06 am
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It did given the chosen path, that is why the usual argument
would need be augmented to explain the fact the OP felt they
would have needed to reverse to get by suggests a somewhat timid
driver because it does not look to be the case on the CCTV and
the intent of the regs is not to punish a timid driver. Nor is
it possible to see if the bus could have moved forward more
This is not unwinnable but will take strong argument
#Post#: 10025--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - TfL - Entering a box junction - Great West Road /
Windmill Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: November 13, 2023, 3:33 am
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Measuring the lane width on GoogleMaps suggests they are 2.9 -
3.0 metres wide. The car in question is a VW - not sure the
precise model (Tiguan?) but it's likely to be no more than 1.95
metres wide (including mirrors on the right hand side). In
which case only two-thirds of the lane was needed to get past
the bus. It looks to me like the rear wheel of the bus is on
the lane marker, it is at a slight angle so the rear of the bus
would be protruding into the left hand lane but not by enough to
take up a third of it in my opinion.
I still think the driver could have completed the manoeuvre if
they had been minded to. That they didn't can only be out of
extreme caution/nervousness/misjudgement, not from being blocked
in which is the legal test. Updated draft as follows:
Dear TFL
I received your PCN ref XXXXXXXXX in respect of stopping in a
box junction.
The Highway Code makes clear that you must not enter a box
junction unless your exit is clear. The video footage you have
supplied clearly shows my chosen exit lane (the lane to the left
of the bus) is clear and available for me to take and
consequently I do not believe a contravention has occurred.
There are two exit lanes available and only one vehicle in front
of me (the bus) when I commit to entering the box junction. The
bus takes the right hand lane but in so doing leaves its rear
left wheel on the lane divider, and with the bus at a slight
angle its rear is straddling the two lanes by a small margin.
However by the time it comes to a complete halt the incursion
into the left lane is relatively minor and the video footage
shows a big enough gap for me to pass through (after the light
turns green and I pass through the junction, you can see there
is plenty of spare width on either side of my car relative to
the lane).
I believe the video footage is clear that I could have passed by
the bus into the vacant exit but, for completeness, I have also
analysed the distance using Google Maps. The lane width is
between 2.9 metres and 3.0 metres and the width of my vehicle is
only Xm. Consequently the bus would have had to incurred into
my exit lane by at least a third of the lane width to leave my
chosen exit unavailable and in my view the video evidence shows
this not to be the case. If you see fit to reject these
representations please explain on what basis you disagree.
I also understand the specific test set out in the relevant
legislation is whether I caused my vehicle to enter the box
junction so that it had [my emphasis] to stop in the box due to
the presence of stationary vehicles. Clearly I did stop my
vehicle in the box, but in my view the video footage is also
clear that I did not have to stop where I did. I could have
continued into my chosen exit lane unimpeded had I been minded
to. That I didn't is regretable but not punishable in these
circumstances. My reasons for stopping where I did are that
there was a red light ahead and so I did not see any advantage
in making a narrow pass of the bus, and I was also aware of the
moped behind me considering undertaking me. The roadworks on
the far side of the junction have effectively ceased to make
this junction a crossroads and as such I knew that in stopping
where I did I would not be blocking the traffic flow so it
seemed the best course of action at the time.
In these circumstances I look forward to confirmation that you
have cancelled this PCN.
Yours faithfully,
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