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#Post#: 9791--------------------------------------------------
PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: Baxtinho
Date: November 10, 2023, 12:51 pm
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Hi there, first time that I've been ever PCN'd in a loading bay.
Part of my job involves dropping off new computer parts to
customer/end users, and yesterday I dropped off a printer for a
restaurant kitchen at a site in Cheltenham.
I stopped in a loading bay, the attendant must've seen me as
when I came out she said I'd been six minutes and their
guidelines are to allow five. I have got work documentation
including a copy signed by the customer to say that I was there
briefly, and on work business - but I don't know how to word my
appeal.
I have challenged those fake ANPR private parking Notice To
Keeper ones successfully before but never one of these. Any
advice greatly appreciated.
PCN attached, and my first draft planned appeal letter. Any
replies and advice appreciated.
Bax
HTML https://i.imgur.com/pCPn9Bd.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Wk195TB.jpg
*Edited to meet photo attachment standards*
#Post#: 9792--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 10, 2023, 1:06 pm
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Can you please post the text of your draft on here, so that we
can edit it?
Also forget about being willing to supply further stuff, it's up
to you to provide everything up-front and the council has no
duty to consider things you could provide but haven't.
Have you got a delivery note or similar you can send with the
representation?
Also please see the guidance here
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/<br
/>on posting images.
#Post#: 9794--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: Baxtinho
Date: November 10, 2023, 1:14 pm
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Draft Appeal:
Dear Sirs,
On 8/11/23 I received PCN GD64190398 while loading in a marked
bay.
I work for [Redacted] and we work with [Customers Name]
supplying their [Technical Terms] equipment. On the date in
question they encountered a catastrophic failure of some key
hardware and as a result were struggling to trade.
I attended site to deliver a replacement [Piece of Kit] at 14:49
where I was observed by one of your Officers.
There was no clear and apparent signage limiting duration of
loading, so once I had completed the delivery I left site, only
to be told that I had exceeded five minutes and therefore was in
breach of the laws. There are no time restriction signs in the
area and as a result, I felt six minutes was an appropriate and
fair period of time to be in a designated Loading Bay. I did not
use my time parked there to complete any other tasks or to carry
out any personal errands, merely to deliver the [Equipment]. You
can see details of this [Equipment] as well as the manager of
[The Site] signature verifying this attached.
I am happy to provide further authorisation of the work carried
out from my employer if required.
Yours faithfully
[Me]
I must not have been clear about "further stuff". The only other
documentation I have is the sheet signed by the customer, from
my office, which has details of my employer, the customer and
the standard stuff to which I was referring - the time, date,
reason I was on site and a signature from the customer
confirming they'd received the new equipment.
#Post#: 9795--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: guest46
Date: November 10, 2023, 1:30 pm
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You have to be credible! I doubt very much you had any conscous
recollection of the time and '...felt 6 minutes...' was anything
at all?? This make you seem a little 'odd'! (How would you have
known the Council's allowance was 5?) What's wrong with simply
saying it took 6 minutes only to unload the item, carry it to
whereever, complete the delivery documentation and return to the
vehicle?
'Catastrophic failure of hardware'? Their printer stopped
working.............
#Post#: 9798--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: Baxtinho
Date: November 10, 2023, 2:00 pm
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--- Quote from: M60NJP link ---
>
> You have to be credible! I doubt very much you had any
conscous recollection of the time and '...felt 6 minutes...' was
anything at all?? This make you seem a little 'odd'! (How would
you have known the Council's allowance was 5?) What's wrong with
simply saying it took 6 minutes only to unload the item, carry
it to whereever, complete the delivery documentation and return
to the vehicle?
>
> 'Catastrophic failure of hardware'? Their printer stopped
working.............
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for your reply.
I could not be sure about the precise time, that isn't what I
was saying. I have been given a fine, but felt six minutes was
an acceptable and reasonable time to be considered as loading,
and therefore feel that a ticket was excessive.
My use of catastrophic was in the sense of complete and totally
beyond repair, I can reword if you think they'd be bothered
about my semantics. Also, you may not have worked in a busy
restaurant kitchen, I can assure you it feels very disastrous
when the orders stop coming through ;)
#Post#: 9799--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: slapdash
Date: November 10, 2023, 2:28 pm
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Walk in. "Heres your kit, sign here" walk out is reasonably
loading.
Your account reads a little like - since it is claimed to be
mission critical - that you may have plugged it in, demonstrated
it was working or similar.
If that inference could be drawn it would be unhelpful.
#Post#: 9800--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: Baxtinho
Date: November 10, 2023, 2:42 pm
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--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> Walk in. "Heres your kit, sign here" walk out is reasonably
loading.
>
> Your account reads a little like - since it is claimed to be
mission critical - that you may have plugged it in, demonstrated
it was working or similar.
>
> If that inference could be drawn it would be unhelpful.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, I see what you're saying. That's exactly what happened,
as well as delivering, I got the manager to check the
replacement did what was required of it.
Is six minutes considered too long for loading then (in their
eyes, not necessarily yours)? How would you go about challenging
this, or do you think it's frivolous?
I naively assumed < 10 minutes would be seen as fair enough -
but I suppose I don't base that on anything :-\
#Post#: 9818--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: slapdash
Date: November 11, 2023, 1:51 am
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I would just be careful about wording if you are still intending
to challenge.
I expect the draft you posted will get comment and polish.
Whilst installing it and configuring it etc may not strictly be
loading it is reasonable that a customer might want to inspect
and check something works. There has to be a bit of a balance.
Is the vehicle registered to you and at your current address ?
If there is a finance co then they would normally get the notice
to owner if the pcn remains unpaid. They will charge an admin
fee (usually around £30 though often reclaimable if you win).
Some may just pay it.
Depending on how risk averse you are it may be worth considering
paying the discounted £35 if an admin fee from a lease or
similar will be charged.
#Post#: 9819--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: Baxtinho
Date: November 11, 2023, 2:17 am
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--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> I would just be careful about wording if you are still
intending to challenge.
>
> I expect the draft you posted will get comment and
polish.Happy to amend based on peoples' experience, this is my
first time
>
> Whilst installing it and configuring it etc may not strictly
be loading it is reasonable that a customer might want to
inspect and check something works. There has to be a bit of a
balance. Thanks, I don't know how other to justify the time
spent on site if it wasn't ENTIRELY work and delivery of the new
kit-related. I was hoping to play on their compassions a bit I
suppose, but that's likely a dead end.
>
> Is the vehicle registered to you and at your current address
?It's a leased company car, so that's how I fight the fake
parking fines (Keeper/Driver proof)
>
> If there is a finance co then they would normally get the
notice to owner if the pcn remains unpaid. They will charge an
admin fee (usually around £30 though often reclaimable if you
win). Some may just pay it.
>
> Depending on how risk averse you are it may be worth
considering paying the discounted £35 if an admin fee from a
lease or similar will be charged. Ordinary I'd fight them all
the way and claim back any charges they add, but I'm really
skint so can't really afford to go down that route
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 9823--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN when genuinely loading
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 11, 2023, 3:49 am
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Loading, (as confirmed by adjudications going back to the 90s),
includes all activities associated with that like getting
signature, finding the person to take delivery, etc. Whether
staying while customer checks the device for operation would be
within that is something you'd have to put in front of an
adjudicator.
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