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#Post#: 100224--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 28, 2025, 9:13 am
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Here's yet another link. - to the proposed siting of cameras,
signs etc... (For completeness sake, to add to my collection of
links).
HTML https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s105991/Annex%201%20-%20PLAN%2020mph%20Kingston%20Hill.pdf.<br
/>I would like to promise no more links, but I can't.
#Post#: 100279--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 29, 2025, 3:10 am
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Good morning. So it looks like the TMO quoted in the met police
defence was revoked on 10th October 2024 when it published their
kingston upon thames (moving traffic restrictions) order 2024
no. 15.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link
However, my biggest issue is with the signs around kingston vale
and kingston hill. Following, whilst not agreeing with, their
plans to impose 20mph around these two roads, why did they
actively put new 30MPH terminal signs on the entry points into
Kingston Vale at Derwent Avenue and Robin Hood Lane? This was
not there last year, why is it there now? And why have they put
the wrong speed limit on as this is confusing?
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/YUnzEoQmYLsuAPPg7
#Post#: 100281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: andy_foster Date: November 29, 2025, 3:13 am
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[quote author=l_maktari link=topic=8915.msg100224#msg100224
date=1764342811]
I would like to promise no more links, but I can't.
[/quote]
I can...
#Post#: 100319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 29, 2025, 7:38 am
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I think you need to concentrate on your particular problem and
not concern yourself with the other locations you mention.
So it seems that the TMO that PC Wilson relies on in his
evidence was revoked. If you defended the charge on that basis
you would not be permitted to “ambush” the prosecution with that
defence. They would be given the opportunity to amend their
evidence.
That means you will need to establish what TMO they do rely on
to bring the charge. It seems that this would be the Order which
we have not seen, but about which we only have information from
the media portal.
If that Order does mean that the 20 limit begins 150 metres
beyond (i.e. the London side) of Kingston Hill’s junction with
Warren Road, it would seem to fit the signage.
Coming from the A3, the first “30” terminal side is near the
shops in Kingston Vale. After that, there is nothing until the
“20” terminal sign just after the “Galsworthy House” bus stop.
Then there are “20” repeaters with camera signs, one either side
of Eastcott Close with the second mounted on the same post as
the camera which presumably was the one which caught you.
I do not believe a defence of insufficient signage would
succeed. The terminal sign is perfectly clear (at least it is on
GSV, dated June 25) as are the repeater/camera signs.
This leaves you to decide whether or not to challenge the charge
on the basis of a deficient Traffic Order. We haven’t seen it so
cannot be absolutely sure what it says. It seems perfectly clear
to me what the signage conveys. It’s just a question of whether
the limit is lawful.
#Post#: 100341--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 29, 2025, 1:55 pm
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Yes, indeed. That all makes perfect sense. I am not sure if
you are able to access google drive files but this is the link
that I provided earlier to the full traffic order on the RBK
website.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link
The traffic order is a big document but there are only a few
bits of relevance - the wording of the restrictions and the maps
which show the locations of the changes implemented in this
order. The maps on kingston vale are on pages 55 and 56. From
where it comes off the A3, the maps show that the 20mph has been
added until where it meets Kingston hill when it is unmarked on
the map (meaning it hasn't changed and remains 30mph), creating
a very random gap on Kingston hill which is 30mph. Then the
Traffic Order states that the speed limit becomes 20mph again
around Coombe Ridings where there is a 20mph terminal sign which
I have disputed as being not well located as it is behind a bus
stop which is frequently used. As you have pointed out, this is
likely to be a slim line of defence.
The map is found on page 66 of the Traffic Order and the rest of
the hill is shown on page 72 of the document.
From the bottom of Kingston Vale until the camera by Eastcott
Close/ Warren Road, the signage is an absolute mess. If you
travel from the bottom of Kingston Vale, we enter a new 20mph
speed limit with no signs to indicate this, neither as terminal
signs nor any roundels. If you enter Kingston Vale from a side
street (Robin Hood Lane or Derwent Avenue), there are new
terminal signs indicating that the speed limit is 30mph, when it
should indicate 20mph. When Kingston Vale becomes Kingston
Hill, there is no new terminal sign saying that there is now a
30mph limit. At the top of the hill, where there are the
cameras, there is the first correct terminal sign albeit,
arguably, it is not well positioned.
Can the Traffic Order not be challenged on the grounds that the
implementation of the new order is deficient? The traffic
authority responsible for both signage and the traffic order
itself is RBK.
#Post#: 100348--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: andy_foster Date: November 29, 2025, 3:28 pm
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To challenge what is ostensibly a lawful Order, based on
procedural impropriety, Wednesbury unreasonableness, etc., you
would need to seek a Judicial Review in the High Court. The
magistrates lack the supervisory jurisdiction to quash the
Order, or disregard it (other than on the grounds of it having
been revoked or never enacted).
#Post#: 100350--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 29, 2025, 3:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I certainly don't have the means or knowledge to do this at the
high court. So the only course of action will be to plead for
clemency. If this is rejected, could I get even bigger fines
than the original £100 per alleged contravention?
#Post#: 100351--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: Hippocrates Date: November 29, 2025, 4:04 pm
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Having been in similar situations in my speeding days on
motorcycles - big ones - I would say I need my licence for work
purposes as a starter. But the court is bound by statutory
penalties of course.
#Post#: 100353--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 29, 2025, 4:08 pm
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do statutory penalties include additional punitive penalties for
those challenging them at court? I still don't understand why
they didn't offer me a speed awareness course, at least for one
of the penalties.
#Post#: 100354--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: Southpaw82 Date: November 29, 2025, 4:24 pm
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[quote author=l_maktari link=topic=8915.msg100350#msg100350
date=1764453170] If this is rejected, could I get even bigger
fines than the original £100 per alleged contravention?
[/quote]
You would be sentenced according to the sentencing guidelines -
almost certainly more than £100, particularly when you add on
court costs and the victim surcharges.
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