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#Post#: 100038--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 27, 2025, 7:09 am
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[quote author=andy_foster link=topic=8915.msg100035#msg100035
date=1764247919]
Lots of irrelevant noise about optional signage, not so much
noise about the TRO the police are relying on apparently being
outdated (revoked).
[/quote]
Yes, no one has said if this could be an argument in my defence.
I am really worried about the 9 points as I am also the main
insured driver on our community fridge van. Going from a clean
license to 9 points will push us into a different scale of
insurance premiums.
#Post#: 100074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 27, 2025, 9:40 am
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I don’t think you will get very far with an argument about
inadequate signage. As well as that, you really need to
concentrate on a single aspect of your defence rather than have
a “shopping basket” of deficiencies that you will be asking the
court to consider.
I think you need to investigate the history behind the two
Traffic Orders.
The one cited by PC Wilson in his evidence pack (The Kingston
upon Thames (20 mph Speed Limit) (No. 5) Traffic Order 2023)
seems to include Kingston Hill in its entirety.
However, the one I found (The Kingston upon Thames (20mph Speed
Limit) No. 1) Traffic Order 2024) mentions a specific section of
that road, namely “Kingston Hill between its junction with
Queens Road and a point 150 metres east of its junction with
Warren Road”.
It seems from “tittle tattle” that Kingston Hill was omitted
from the earlier Order. According to the tittle tattle, there
was debate surrounding where a 20mph limit should commence (in
the direction towards Kingston town centre) and so Kingston Hill
was left out of the otherwise almost blanket 20mph imposition
whilst a study could be undertaken. My suspicion that Kingston
Hill was left out of the earlier order may well be true because
otherwise there would be no point in making the later, more
specific order.
I think you should contact Kingston Council (020 8547 5000
between 9am and 5pm Mondays to Fridays, according to their
website) to gain sight of both these orders.
If the earlier order excludes Kingston Hill then the evidence
provided by PC Wilson does not support the charge but I would
imagine that error could be rectified in court.
If so, that leaves the question of where the limit actually
begins and how that ties in with the placement of the terminal
signs. The difficulty with that, as I mentioned earlier, is that
the point that is 150 metres east of Kingston Hill’s junction
with Warren Road is not on Kingston Hill at all, but probably
somewhere in the gardens towards the end of nearby Eastcotte
Close.
#Post#: 100130--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: Hippocrates Date: November 27, 2025, 3:30 pm
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[quote author=NewJudge link=topic=8915.msg99971#msg99971
date=1764192216]
[quote]What's your point? I just posted I would take a
look.[/quote]
Because, judging from your signature, I thought that was your
field of expertise.
Did you take a look?
[/quote]
Nope. If Mr Plod makes a statement, what has a TMO or
certificates got to do with it anyway? Speeding stuff is not my
expertise. Signage is possibly.
#Post#: 100140--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 27, 2025, 4:42 pm
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[quote]If Mr Plod makes a statement, what has a TMO or
certificates got to do with it anyway? [/quote]
Because - in this case anyway - there is a possibility that the
TMO, which Mr Plod relies on to show that the offence was
committed, might be deficient.
#Post#: 100162--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 28, 2025, 3:05 am
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There are 2 TMOs I believe. The first one, from November 2023
which the Met Police rely on in their prosecution, includes the
whole of Kingston Hill. That TMO applies to 181 roads cited
under that TMO, including Kingston Hill. If that TMO were the
one in force, the signage is non-existent from the start of the
road which is where Kingston Vale ends, just by Cedar Close.
Here is the google maps reference:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/1uNKNf8kcppdxbd78
For that reason, I believe it does not comply with the law which
stipulates that new speed limits have to have new terminal signs
right from the start of the new speed limit. There is no
terminal sign for over 0.5 miles from the start of Kingston Hill
to where the terminal sign is actually positioned.
However, that TMO was hotly contested and not initially approved
by the neighbourhood committee because it was deemed to be badly
positioned with serious potential impact on traffic flow coming
straight off the A3. Eventually, the committee gave in under
assurances that it would be well marked, the roads would have
stamped 20mph roundels etc... as I have already stated earlier.
It eventually got approved in August 2024 which is when the
second TMO P336 was published.
HTML https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffic-and-roads/66c86597dfa4ae951ceaff5c
That is the second TMO. However, now I have looked at it, the
position of the speed cameras is before the start of the new
20mph zone which, as the TMO states, is 150 meters east of the
junction between Kingston Hill and Warren Road. This position
is somewhere at the back of the gardens of Eastcott Close and
Coombe Ridings, and not on Kingston Hill. In which case, has
this TMO been correctly thought through and implemented?
#Post#: 100204--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 28, 2025, 7:31 am
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Have you actually seen the TMO itself?
What you have linked to (and what I found as well) is not the
TMO. It is a publication on a media portal provided for public
notices.
You need to look at the TMO itself. The notice provides a link
to view it but it doesn't work. I suggest you contact Kingston
Council via one of the other methods shown in section 3 of the
notice.
As you realise (and as I pointed out earlier) 150 metres east of
Kingston Hill's junction with Warren Road is not on the highway
at all and it is impossible from that description to determine
where the limit actually begins. You need to know where it does
so as to compare it with where the terminal "20" sign is located
and where the camera that detected you is.
At its junction with Warren Road, Kingston Hill runs at a
heading of almost precisely North-North-East (+/- a degree or
two). I'm wondering if he actual TMO says "North East" (which
would probably suffice) rather than East.
You also need to find out what happened about Kingston Hill in
the earlier "blanket" TMO. What PC Wilson has provided seems to
suggest it remained in the Schedule when the order was made
(which, if it was, raises the question of why the second TMO was
necessary).
#Post#: 100214--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 28, 2025, 8:10 am
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Here is a link to the planned siting of signs etc... of the TMO
which was approved in 2024.
HTML https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s105991/Annex%201%20-%20PLAN%2020mph%20Kingston%20Hill.pdf
#Post#: 100215--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 28, 2025, 8:33 am
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Here is the link to the RBK Moving Traffic Restrictions Order
2024
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link.<br
/>I've asked a friend to find the specific TMO this afternoon.
It is a very big document with all new traffic restrictions from
August 2024 where everything is deeply embedded in various
layers - probably in the hope that no one can find what they are
looking for. However, I have found gross inaccuracies
regarding Kingston Vale which is my neck of the woods.
They put a link on their website to this app which has maps of
all the streets and they have indicated in red line that
Kingston Vale is 20mph on that map. However, There are clearly
positioned terminal signs of 30mph as you go out of the Kingston
Vale estate streets onto the main Kingston Vale road. I don't
know what the heck they are playing at. Is it 20mph or 30mph?
Why have they recently put new 30mph signs at the junctions of
Kingston Vale with Derwent Avenue and Robin Hood Lane as you
exit those two roads if the speed limit is 20mph? I am
seriously confused.
HTML https://streets.appyway.com/kingston-upon-thames
#Post#: 100216--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: andy_foster Date: November 28, 2025, 8:36 am
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And here
HTML https://www.cambridgechocolates.co.uk/chocolate-teapot-47-p.asp<br
/>is a link to a chocolate teapot.
#Post#: 100222--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 28, 2025, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=andy_foster link=topic=8915.msg100216#msg100216
date=1764340605]
And here
HTML https://www.cambridgechocolates.co.uk/chocolate-teapot-47-p.asp<br
/>is a link to a chocolate teapot.
[/quote] My brain feels like it's turning into one.
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