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#Post#: 99814--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 25, 2025, 5:10 pm
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This is a bit different to a moving traffic PCN, Hippo.
The OP has dates with the Magistrates after Christmas where he
will attempt to defend three criminal charges.
#Post#: 99828--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: BertB Date: November 26, 2025, 3:35 am
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I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here, but is the
camera located within the area the 20mph limit is, as defined by
the TRO or outside of it? And did you pass the 20mph signs,
albeit 150 yards sooner than the TRO states you should have
done.
#Post#: 99840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: 666 Date: November 26, 2025, 4:34 am
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[quote author=l_maktari link=topic=8915.msg99798#msg99798
date=1764105146]
[quote author=666 link=topic=8915.msg99762#msg99762
date=1764090318]
[quote author=l_maktari link=topic=8915.msg99757#msg99757
date=1764089102]
Is there anyone I can talk to about the problem we have on
Kingston Hill? The speed cameras just before Warren Road are
poorly located - behind a bus stop instead of infront of it
where drivers could have a good chance of seeing it.
[/quote]
There is no requirement for a camera to be conspicuous, or for
any warning signs.
[/quote]
Is that true? I though they needed to be clear and visible.
"8.10.6.  Speed enforcement should be highly
visible, with drivers made fully aware of the
presence of cameras and of the prevailing speed limit. The
camera and speed limit signs should
always be clearly visible to drivers, and not obscured by other
street furniture or vegetation." (quote from the Traffic Signs
Manual)
[/quote]
But the TSM is not law, simply guidance.
#Post#: 99968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: Hippocrates Date: November 26, 2025, 3:15 pm
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[quote author=NewJudge link=topic=8915.msg99814#msg99814
date=1764112217]
This is a bit different to a moving traffic PCN, Hippo.
The OP has dates with the Magistrates after Christmas where he
will attempt to defend three criminal charges.
[/quote]
What's your point? I just posted I would take a look.
#Post#: 99971--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: NewJudge Date: November 26, 2025, 3:23 pm
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[quote]What's your point? I just posted I would take a
look.[/quote]
Because, judging from your signature, I thought that was your
field of expertise.
Did you take a look?
#Post#: 100021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 27, 2025, 5:27 am
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The evidence provided by the prosecution (Met Police) is the
older TMO issued on November 2023. This talks of the whole of
kingston hill, not just the part at the top.
The other main points are that the terminal sign of the new
speed limit is positioned behind a large obstruction of the
driver's line of vision ( a bus stop shelter and bus stop sign).
They should have positioned it where its visibility is not
obscured.
They did not stamp the roundels on the road tarmac from the
start of the change of speed. Whilst this is not a legal
requirement, it was a minuted undertaking by the council that
they would do this before the cameras were switched on. To
date, they have still not done this. The minutes of the
committee meeting when the speed limit change was finally
approved for kingston hill are : The minutes are held on public
record and are available here:
HTML https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/g10011/Printed%20minutes%20Thursday%2011-Jul-2024%2019.30%20Kingston%20and%20North%20Kingston%20Neighbourhood%20Committee.pdf?T=1
#Post#: 100025--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: l_maktari Date: November 27, 2025, 5:42 am
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This is a link to Google maps street view of the bus stop with
the sign positioned behind it
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/eynt8qrqThshdRM4A
and a little bit further along when you can still hardly see it.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/JZHWxzkK8896uU6P7
Here is the position of the camera.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/wzvBiCTTppe3LoeW7
If you look at the road there are no roundels, contrary to their
statement that they would ensure there was adequate signage
including printed 20mph roundels. "The Committee also commented
on how prominent the signage would be when the speed decreased
to 20mph. It was noted that there would be a 20mph roundel in
the road and the need for the sign to be prominent was
understood. " This is taken from the committee meeting and the
minutes are linked to in the previous post.
#Post#: 100029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: Southpaw82 Date: November 27, 2025, 6:16 am
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So because the council didn’t do something they’re not required
to do by law, the police can’t enforce the criminal law? It’s
not the best argument ever, is it?
#Post#: 100034--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: DWMB2 Date: November 27, 2025, 6:48 am
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I can see how a bus present at the stop might obstruct your view
of the signs on approach to an extent, but once past the stop
you've still got a decent opportunity to see them
(
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/y9N3xcjhfiF8aucQ8
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/y9N3xcjhfiF8aucQ8).
I think it might be
an uphill battle to convince a court that one could "hardly see
it". There is also a 'reminder' sign just before the speed
camera (
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXuH4w2njBWVkZ7w9
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/xXuH4w2njBWVkZ7w9).
#Post#: 100035--------------------------------------------------
Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston
Hill lawful?
By: andy_foster Date: November 27, 2025, 6:51 am
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Lots of irrelevant noise about optional signage, not so much
noise about the TRO the police are relying on apparently being
outdated (revoked).
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