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#Post#: 99314--------------------------------------------------
Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arrow s
ignal), is it allowed?
By: satsuki726 Date: November 22, 2025, 9:20 am
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Just a general enquiry about law on u turns. So sometimes when
I'm going home from M1S I take J2 and arrive at this traffic
light to either: 1. Make a u turn onto A1N, or 2. Turn right and
use the side streets. It's obviously quicker to do 1. However
waze never tells me to do that but google map does. So I was
trying to see if it is legal on google/reddit, etc. Some say
only a u turn prohibition sign would prohibit u turns and
otherwise I can do one. Some referred to the law:
[quote]
From Traffic Signs Manual: Chapter 6
“3.5 Green arrows 3.5.1.  A green arrow signifies
that drivers may proceed only in the direction of the arrow
(assuming no other green signal is shown) and continue through
the junction in that direction.”
From The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
PART I SECTION 5 Regulation 36
“(f)save as provided in sub-paragraphs (g) and (h), the green
arrow signal shall indicate that vehicular traffic may,
notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals,
proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by
the arrow for the purpose of proceeding in that direction
through the junction controlled by those signals;
(g)where more than one green arrow is affixed to light signals
in accordance with regulation 34(1)(b), vehicular traffic,
notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, may
proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by
any one of the green arrows for the purpose of proceeding in
that direction through the junction controlled by those signals;
and
(h)where the green arrow signal is displayed at the same time as
the green signal, vehicular traffic may proceed in the direction
indicated by the green arrow in accordance with sub-paragraph
(g) or in any other direction in accordance with sub-paragraph
(d).”
link to the post
HTML https://www.reddit.com/r/driving/comments/kkpfij/can_i_do_a_uturn_on_green_right_arrow_lights_uk/
[\quote]
The location on google street view:
[quote]
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/bP9KjE2HJDZeDm6P7
[\quote]
The law seems convincing, however the other side of the
junction:
[quote]
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/EcgieKTgdGhGo2rH9
[\quote]
has a clear u turn prohibition sign.
Also I can confirm if the right arrow is on green there's no
turn allowed from the side roads, i.e. no contradicting flow of
traffic to a u turn.
So I wonder why. Advance appreciations for any answers.
#Post#: 99318--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: satsuki726 Date: November 22, 2025, 9:34 am
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I suppose the real question about the law being:
What counts as the 'direction of the arrow'?
making a u turn would be towards the right hand side, so it is
allowed?
#Post#: 99327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: 666 Date: November 22, 2025, 10:15 am
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[quote author=satsuki726 link=topic=8876.msg99318#msg99318
date=1763825693]
I suppose the real question about the law being:
What counts as the 'direction of the arrow'?
making a u turn would be towards the right hand side, so it is
allowed?
[/quote]
Both the regs quoted and the Signs Manual are pretty clear. You
can proceed only in the direction of the arrow, AND "for the
purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction". A
U-turn is manifestly not in that direction.
#Post#: 99348--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: satsuki726 Date: November 22, 2025, 12:52 pm
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Thanks. [member=297]666[/member]
#Post#: 99365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: ivanleo Date: November 22, 2025, 6:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=666 link=topic=8876.msg99327#msg99327
date=1763828108]
Both the regs quoted and the Signs Manual are pretty clear. You
can proceed only in the direction of the arrow, AND "for the
purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction". A
U-turn is manifestly not in that direction.
[/quote]
From memory the TSRGD only qualify traffic movements in this way
if a green arrow is being relied upon to go though a red light,
i.e. if it's a filter light. If all the lights being displayed
are green arrows of some description or another then the
bomb-proof defence to any ATS allegation is that no red or amber
lights were displayed, so there cannot be any ATS offence. So
you don't need to rely on the filter light defence as such.
This leaves the question of the white arrow on a blue sign
which, when embedded into a traffic light array, requires a TMO.
Contravening that sign would be a civil contravention as well as
a criminal offence, so the court or tribunal hearing the case
would then have to determine if performing a u-turn is
permitted. The obvious argument is that in order to effect a
u-turn you have to turn right first, and the sign does not say
what you must do after you've turned right. In a criminal court
you'd argue that a criminal statute must be narrowly
constructed.
In either a civil or criminal context the obvious argument to be
made is that if the Highway Authority wants to prohibit a
u-turn, they should install no u-turn signs.
#Post#: 99367--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: andy_foster Date: November 22, 2025, 7:49 pm
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As this is in the Flame Pit, I would add that regardless of
whether or not a U-turn can lawfully be performed either when a
red light is showing and a green filter arrow is also showing,
or if all lights are green, anyone who posts as part of a
question as to what the law does and does not permit "The law
seems convincing" should be taken out and shot.
It should also be noted that the law does not "permit" things
absolutely. Mostly, it has specific prohibitions and more
nuanced prohibitions. If a driver were to hold up traffic
turning right at that junction by performing a convoluted
multi-point U-turn, then arguably that would constitute careless
driving, regardless of whether or not it also constituted a
traffic signs offence.
#Post#: 99420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: satsuki726 Date: November 23, 2025, 11:08 am
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[quote author=cp8759 link=topic=8876.msg99365#msg99365
date=1763857140]
In either a civil or criminal context the obvious argument to be
made is that if the Highway Authority wants to prohibit a
u-turn, they should install no u-turn signs.
[/quote]
I think the design of the junction that I have mentioned
corresponds to this idea.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/8687jnrqMkPnkJts7
The phases of the green signals are:
1. A1N and the crossing of A1S after junction
2. A1S and crossing of A1N before junction
3. Side roads both ways
4. maybe another pedestrian phase
What I would like to say is that they have put a no u turn sign
only on the A1N approaching the junction, in my opinion this
prevents contradiction between u turn vehicles and the crossing
in phase 1.
On the A1S carriageway there's no contradicting flow to the u
turn so they have not put one on.
It might still be illegal to u turn here but I don't think that
the designer of the junction have been thinking of that.
A more general question being, for a split phase signal there
usually (or most of the time) is a arrow signal, to indicate
protected right turn, I don't think any traffic would be blocked
by doing a u turn there except for simultaneous left turns or
pedestrian, but surely they could just put up a no u turn sign,
and otherwise how are they going to permit u turn at those
junctions?
Another weird example is:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qW2ShNZeugeBYaSu6
There's no blue arrow signs but there is a arrow signal without
no u turn sign. However there is simultaneous left turn traffic
so they should have banned u turn actually, or just need to
yield to the left turn traffic? Also it is not really making
sense if the red light is just round and I have to find out I
cannot do a u turn there only after it turns into green arrow,
if the law implies no u turn at arrow signals.
I will probably avoid u turning at those arrow lights in the
future, just trying to find out if it is allowed and observe
some discussion from the professionals.
#Post#: 99424--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: ivanleo Date: November 23, 2025, 11:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=satsuki726 link=topic=8876.msg99420#msg99420
date=1763917702]
On the A1S carriageway there's no contradicting flow to the u
turn so they have not put one on.
It might still be illegal to u turn here but I don't think that
the designer of the junction have been thinking of that.
[/quote]
As long as it is done safely and with due care and attention, I
struggle to see why a u-turn would be illegal.
[quote author=satsuki726 link=topic=8876.msg99420#msg99420
date=1763917702]
A more general question being, for a split phase signal there
usually (or most of the time) is a arrow signal, to indicate
protected right turn, I don't think any traffic would be blocked
by doing a u turn there except for simultaneous left turns or
pedestrian, but surely they could just put up a no u turn sign,
and otherwise how are they going to permit u turn at those
junctions?
[/quote]
It depends on the circumstances, you can't hope for a general
answer that covers all scenarios.
[quote author=satsuki726 link=topic=8876.msg99420#msg99420
date=1763917702]
Another weird example is:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qW2ShNZeugeBYaSu6
There's no blue arrow signs but there is a arrow signal without
no u turn sign. However there is simultaneous left turn traffic
so they should have banned u turn actually, or just need to
yield to the left turn traffic? Also it is not really making
sense if the red light is just round and I have to find out I
cannot do a u turn there only after it turns into green arrow,
if the law implies no u turn at arrow signals.
[/quote]
There is no scope I can see for a traffic sign offence, but
again it depends on the circumstances. If there's loads of
traffic in all lanes and waiting for a gap would block the
traffic behind you, attempting a u-turn could amount to driving
below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver
i.e. reckless driving. If it's 3 am and yours is the only car on
the road, it's hard to see how a u-turn could amount to any sort
of offence.
TLDR: respect mandatory traffic signs and use a bit of common
sense.
#Post#: 99439--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: stamfordman Date: November 23, 2025, 1:32 pm
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You won't get a council/TFL PCN by CCTV for doing a u-turn where
there's just a green arrow as it has no regulatory force.
As CP says, it's common sense depending on traffic and the
layout. These things tend to evolve piecemeal - they'll put in a
no u-turn if the junction becomes hazardous owing to u-turning
drivers, or consider changing something elsewhere to remove the
reason why people are doing it there.
#Post#: 99457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Making a u turn at traffic lights on a dual carriageway (arr
ow signal), is it allowed?
By: roythebus Date: November 23, 2025, 4:44 pm
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My view is that where there's no sign prohibiting a U turn, then
providing it's safe to do so, then yes, you can make a U turn.
On one of your pictures it seem to show 3 possible right turn
options, ahead then right, sharp right where the white car is,
or U turn.
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