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#Post#: 97998--------------------------------------------------
Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: Peakieaung Date: November 13, 2025, 9:40 am
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I’m hoping someone can help. This morning at around 7:30am (13th
Nov), I was stationary in traffic on the M25 near Cobham with my
engine off. I used the time to connect my phone to my car via
Bluetooth. The police, who were nearby, pulled me over and
issued a ticket for using my phone while driving—even though I
wasn’t driving. The officer mentioned there are 12 unmarked
police cars looking for drivers using phones. I explained I was
stationary with the engine off (it automatically stops at a
standstill), but the officer said I couldn’t prove it.
Apparently, they were using a rolling roadblock for this
operation. Does anyone with legal expertise have any advice
please? Thank you in advance.[/b]
#Post#: 98009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: Dave Green Date: November 13, 2025, 10:33 am
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I know the following link is only government advice and not
legislation but if your case went to court, the magistrate may
well consider it when making a ruling:
HTML https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
"It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any
device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a
motorcycle.
This means you must not use a device in your hand for any
reason, whether online or offline.
For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or
videos, or browse the web.
The law still applies to you if you’re:
stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving"
#Post#: 98015--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: NewJudge Date: November 13, 2025, 10:47 am
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I believe you will struggle to convince a court that you were
not "driving" at the time.
#Post#: 98029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: andy_foster Date: November 13, 2025, 11:53 am
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There are essentially 3 elements to the offence of using a
hand-held device while driving - using, holding and driving.
If you were holding it at the material time, that element
appears to have been satisfied.
To the extent that we can ascribe a coherent and logical gestalt
mind to Parliament, I personally would find it hard to accept
that they intended that somebody manipulating a phone whilst
entirely stationary in a queue of traffic should receive a
mandatory 6 point endorsement. If you had been controlling the
speed and direction of a moving motor vehicle at the time, then
it seems certain that that would have been Parliament's
intention.
As far as we are aware, there is no case law specifically on the
issue of what constitutes "driving" for the purposes of the
mobile phone legislation. For drink driving, being stopped at
traffic lights still constitutes driving, which is entirely
consistent with the purpose of the legislation - apart from the
potential for very poor judgment, a drunk driver would not be
able to stop being drunk instantly when the lights changed.
Whilst the meaning of "using" has widened substantially since
the High Court decided that the original iteration was very
narrow, ([Without looking at the revised wording]I would also be
minded to argue that connecting the phone to the car's bluetooth
is not in and of itself actually "using" the phone - it is
merely preparatory, rather than a being useful in and of itself.
For the purpose of TV licensing, "using" a TV does not include
merely having one available for use - it means actually using,
whereas for insurance, using a motor vehicle on a road or other
public place includes having it parked up (on the somewhat
circular basis that if not, people would get away with using a
vehicle without insurance).
In the alternative, if manipulating the phone to connect to the
car's bluetooth is a "use" in and of itself - ironically a "use"
that would solely negate the risk of using the phone for
interactive communication whilst subsequently controlling the
speed and direction of the vehicle after the traffic had started
moving, then doing so is potentially protected by the qualified
right to give and receive ideas and information under Art. 10
ECHR - which can only be negated by law that is necessary to
protect the rights and safety of others. Whilst connecting to
bluetooth in case you need to call your wife to tell her that
you're going to be late for dinner is not the most compelling of
"freedom of speech" cases, any infringement of that right by
public authority would need to be justified as necessary and
proportionate. Basically, "the law is the law" and other such
trite tautologies won't cut it.
Your options are to accept the fixed penalty, or reject/ignore
the fixed penalty and wait for them to take you to court.
If you accept the fixed penalty, or lose in court, you get the
same 6 points, but a much heavier fine + costs + surcharge if
you lose in court.
If you manage to win in court (either at first instance, or on
appeal if you have the appetite for it), then you get no points
and no fine.
#Post#: 98102--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: Peakieaung Date: November 14, 2025, 4:11 am
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Very kind of you to take the time to do this. Thank you
#Post#: 98114--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: disgruntchelt Date: November 14, 2025, 4:41 am
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Do you have any points currently? If you were already on 6
points it might be worth trying your luck with a sympathetic
magistrate. (Risk vs reward ratio).
Were you actually holding the phone or was it resting somewhere
or in a cradle?
#Post#: 98157--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: Peakieaung Date: November 14, 2025, 7:46 am
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Thank you for replying. It was in my lap
#Post#: 98160--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: 666 Date: November 14, 2025, 7:52 am
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[quote author=disgruntchelt link=topic=8760.msg98114#msg98114
date=1763116899]
Do you have any points currently? If you were already on 6
points it might be worth trying your luck with a sympathetic
magistrate. (Risk vs reward ratio).
[/quote]
The task is harder than you suggest. He'd need at least two mags
to agree with him.
#Post#: 98182--------------------------------------------------
Re: Using Phone whilst not driving! - Please Help
By: NewJudge Date: November 14, 2025, 9:38 am
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[quote]Unfortunately, the law has expanded its use of a mobile
phone when in control of a motor vehicle. Regardless if your in
a vehicle, which is at a standstill with automatic cut out you
are still in control of the vehicle.[/quote]
Whilst the law was changed (in 2022) to expand the definition of
"using" a mobile phone (to encompass just about any and every
activity) the restriction concerning "driving" has remained at
just that - it is illegal to drive whilst using a mobile phone.
The law makes no mention of being "in control".
I don't know of any case law where the definition of "driving"
was clarified and without that it becomes entirely a matter for
individual courts to determine each case on its merits.
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