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#Post#: 9417--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: Kiwimeerkat
Date: November 6, 2023, 3:10 pm
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Hello all, I have received a PCN for a non payment on 20/09/2023
however the time on the notice is 23:59:35. The charge was paid
for the day of 21/09/2023 so I am wondering if this can be
disputed based on the 25 seconds being so negligible?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 9420--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 6, 2023, 3:30 pm
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I would say yes. This is venal moneygrubbing at its worst, in
fact probably the worst example I've seen. I suggest you submit
reps on the basis that the contravention did not occur. There
have been successful adjudications on this very thing, with
times much further away than your PCN. Adjudicators recognise
that car clocks can be some few minutes out and will accept de
minimis arguments. The council may even do so if you submit
reps. You should also point out in your reps that you had
actually paid in advance for the following day, so was somewhat
surprised to receive the PCN as your car clock showed as past
midnight.
Can you please post-up the PCN. There is more ammunition
available, but let's see the PCN first.
#Post#: 9421--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: Kiwimeerkat
Date: November 6, 2023, 3:40 pm
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Thank you for your advice, here is the full PCN
HTML https://imgur.com/a/ebCG1Rn
I’m hoping to appeal based on the timing but please let me know
if anything else should be done.
#Post#: 9422--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 6, 2023, 4:02 pm
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There is the 0870 phone number issue. Essentially, because some
of the charges for 0870 calls go to the organisation being
called, use of this number means the PCN represents an unlawful
demand for money, being more than the penalty charge.
In addition, an adjudication (2018) on a DART PCN which is
under the same legislation as low emissions zones, ruled that a
PCN issued under the Road User Charges Act, and its associated
regulations can only request payment of the penalty charge, and
not add the road user charge on to it. So far this has not been
tested for any PCNs issued for non-payment of tolls for
non-compliant vehicles using one of the zones.
When you paid the toll, did you specify the date of entry into
the zone ?
#Post#: 9423--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: November 6, 2023, 4:03 pm
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[member=12]Incandescent[/member] & other experts They've kept
the phone number but added the price..... Have any Bristol CAZ
PCNs actually reached adjudication?
#Post#: 9424--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: Kiwimeerkat
Date: November 6, 2023, 4:11 pm
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I really appreciate the input, thank you.
So which course of reps would be best at this point?
Yes I specified the date when paying for the charge.
#Post#: 9434--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: November 6, 2023, 5:13 pm
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On the time side...
Were you entering, leaving or somewhere in the middle?
If the first I would expect an adjudicator to treat the error as
minimal and that you had indeed paid.
But less so for either of the other cases.
#Post#: 9437--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: Kiwimeerkat
Date: November 6, 2023, 5:24 pm
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The time stated on the PCN was that of entry to the zone, so
effectively they have issued due to entering 25 seconds too
early.
#Post#: 9442--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: November 6, 2023, 5:45 pm
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--- Quote from: Kiwimeerkat link ---
>
> The time stated on the PCN was that of entry to the zone, so
effectively they have issued due to entering 25 seconds too
early.
>
--- End Quote ---
In which case state that you believed that it was past midnight
when you entered the zone so naturally paid for the day that you
thought applied, ie the 21st.
And that you have paid for that day, include proof of payment.
The cases referred to for minimal time discrepancies tend to
include comments from adjudicators that motorists cannot be
expected to be accurate to the second.
Without getting into arguments with our Hero Member again, this
is one where the Like Moran case could easily apply but if the
adjudicator accepts de-minimus on the timing, the charge was
paid and the PCN must be cancelled.
I would include a reference to it anyway, until it is clarified
one way or another, may as well.
#Post#: 9443--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Bristol CAZ - 25 seconds before midnight
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 6, 2023, 6:11 pm
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The OP says he paid in advance and specified a particular day,
but entered the zone 25 seconds too early, so they walloped him
for not paying for the previous day, not the one he had paid
for. That is my understanding, anyway.
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