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       #Post#: 114749--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: Sarf London
       Date: March 29, 2026, 7:59 am
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       Intercity - thanks for all your help. I'll post back here should
       an LBA appear.
       #Post#: 114984--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: Innocentman
       Date: March 31, 2026, 5:27 pm
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       Hang on a minute guys - this seems to be pretty crucial..
       --- Quote from: b789 link ---
       >
       >
       > [quote]
       > .
       > .
       > .
       > Here the missing limb is 9(2)(e)(i). That sub-paragraph
       requires the NtK to invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking
       charges. The law is explicit that the invitation must be
       directed to “the keeper”. It is not enough to tell “the driver”
       to pay; it must invite “the keeper” to pay if the creditor wants
       keeper liability.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       [/quote]
       9(2)(e) says
       (i) OR
       (ii)
       So "invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges" OR "if
       the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the
       creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for
       service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver".
       The NtK says
  HTML https://i.postimg.cc/5YqqJ4DX/Screen-Hunter-3340.jpg
  HTML https://postimg.cc/5YqqJ4DX
       so they have complied with 9(2)(e).  9(2)(e) says do (i) OR (ii)
       and they've done (ii).
       No?
       #Post#: 114989--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: InterCity125
       Date: April 1, 2026, 1:30 am
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       No.
       The legislation requires that the NtK invite the keeper to pay
       the charges OR nominate another driver.
       I understand the point which you are making - that the operator
       has a choice as to which one they invite the driver to do - but
       that isn't in keeping with the grammar of the text of the
       legislation.
       Also, ask yourself; what purpose would your interpretation
       serve? It wouldn't make any sense or serve any purpose?
       #Post#: 114990--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: ixxy
       Date: April 1, 2026, 1:31 am
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       The PCN also quite clearly states that if the driver is not
       identified they will pursue the keeper. The key issue here is
       whether the NTK has to have the exact wording contained within
       the legislation or not. Some people on here believe the wording
       needs to be exact, others are not so sure and the private
       parking companies and the independent appeals services certainly
       don't think that is the case.
       So until a claim  gets to court that is solely defended on this
       basis and wins we don't really have definitive answer (and even
       then its not binding on other claims). So if a keeper doesn't
       want to pay a PCN and has no proper grounds to appeal then it
       makes for an official sounding appeal which will help,run the
       clock down until a claim is possibly issued. If on there other
       hand there are better grounds for appeal, clear breach of the
       code, NTK issued too late, signage issues, frustration of
       contract etc. , its much better to use those arguments as they
       might actually get an appeal granted and if it isn't the keeper
       is no worse off.
       #Post#: 115002--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: Innocentman
       Date: April 1, 2026, 4:06 am
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       --- Quote from: InterCity125 link ---
       >
       > No.
       >
       > The legislation requires that the NtK invite the keeper to pay
       the charges OR nominate another driver.
       >
       > I understand the point which you are making - that the
       operator has a choice as to which one they invite the driver to
       do - but that isn't in keeping with the grammar of the text of
       the legislation.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Mmm.  I understand the point which you are making, but IMO the
       grammar is clear.  The whole of Para 9(2) talks about what the
       notice must do or contain - it must do (a) and (b) and (c) etc,
       until we get to (e) which is to be read as 'the notice must do
       (e)(i) or the notice must do (e)(ii)'.
       If we look at 9(2)(a) it says that the notice must "specify the
       vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period
       of parking to which the notice relates".
       9(2)(b) - "inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay
       parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking
       and that the parking charges have not been paid in full"
       IMO if 9(2)(e) was meant to say that the notice must invite the
       keeper to either pay up or to throw the driver under the bus it
       would have been worded something like
       (e) state that the creditor does not know both the name of the
       driver and
       a current address for service for the driver and invite the
       keeper to pay
       the unpaid parking charges or if the keeper was not the driver
       of the vehicle,
       to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current
       address for
       service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
       But as it is, with a 9(2)(e)(i) separated from a 9(2)(e)(ii)
       with a '; or' it's not saying 'the notice must invite the keeper
       to do this or to do that', it's saying 'the notice must invite
       the keeper to do this or the notice must invite the keeper to do
       that'.
       But as ixxy says, it would need a court case to determine
       exactly what it means.
       #Post#: 115007--------------------------------------------------
       Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
   DIR By: InterCity125
       Date: April 1, 2026, 5:08 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       If 9(2)(e) was stated and then followed by 9(2)(e)(ii) but
       without 9(2)(e)(i) then it would read as gibberish?
       Namely;
       The notice must state that the creditor does not know both the
       name of the driver and a current address for service for the
       driver and invite the keeper if the keeper was not the driver of
       the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver
       and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the
       notice on to the driver.
       As I suggested earlier - what would be the point of allowing the
       parking operator to chose between the two different invitations?
       There's no question in my mind that the legislation requires
       that the notice state the prescribed wording (or near enough)
       AND then immediately offer the two limbed invitation to the
       keeper.
       I understand your point regarding your 'all-in-one' passage of
       wording but it could be that legislators specifically wished to
       underline the requirement of offering the two limbed invitation.
       If you read other Acts then you will see that this method of
       presentation is very commonplace - look at 9(2)(f) which also
       contains a multi-limb requirement but this time under AND logic.
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