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#Post#: 9287--------------------------------------------------
ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 5, 2023, 11:07 am
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Hello all
Just wondering if I can get your opinions on this
I received a ULEZ PCN through the post on 03 Nov (copy
attached).
I had strayed into the zone after joining the main road into
Biggin Hill (A223) from a B road after losing my bearings (link
to google map street view attached). I must have driven past a
sign warning me that I was entering the ULEZ at some point but I
can’t remember seeing it. I realised I was in the zone after
seeing an enforcement camera warning sign and after that it was
too late to do anything about it. I contacted ULEZ and said
that I had may have strayed into the zone and asked if it was
possible for me to know for certain if I had done so before I
paid the charge, but they said that there was no mechanism for
them to be able to tell me whether I had (or actually whether
they had caught me on one of their cameras) and so I had to pay
up just in case. This seemed unfair so I decided to take my
chances, planning to appeal on the grounds of
inadequate/unlawful signage (I believe that’s a possible line of
defence) and/or that I had got lost and didn’t realise I had
entered the zone until it was too late.
I’ve also put up a link showing the location of the enforcement
camera.
Does anyone think there’s a chance with this appeal?
Many thanks in advance for any advice you can offer
HTML https://i.imgur.com/sCo6FWF.jpeg
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ci2aYLnTqeePBoPm7
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/NCf2sfN3qrXwp5ZL6
#Post#: 9292--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 5, 2023, 11:21 am
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Both the locations you've gives us links to are well within the
zone. Honestly if you saw a sign saying you were within the
zone, it would have been best to just pay the £12.50, but we are
where we are.
You need to go to
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when<br
/>and compare your route to the ULEZ boundary in order to work
out
exactly where you would have entered the zone.
#Post#: 9296--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 5, 2023, 11:47 am
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Hi - thanks for the reply
It looks as though I must have got onto Skid Hill Lane (outside
ULEZ) and turned right into Sheep Barn Lane (inside ULEZ) in an
attempt to get back to where I had come from
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/krsGFRBDaErCgfGr5
#Post#: 9300--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 5, 2023, 1:11 pm
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Hm. I think I'd have paid up the £12.50. Gambling you'll win a
PCN case where the discount alone is £90, full penalty £180 on a
possible inadequate signage appeal is taking a big risk IMHO.
#Post#: 9301--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 5, 2023, 1:17 pm
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Well if it was just a question of hedging my bets I probably
would have done, but I strongly object to paying this stealth
tax and will do anything I need to do to avoid supporting it
#Post#: 9332--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 5, 2023, 6:00 pm
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--- Quote from: BH1001 link ---
>
> Well if it was just a question of hedging my bets I probably
would have done, but I strongly object to paying this stealth
tax and will do anything I need to do to avoid supporting it
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure paying £180 is better than paying £12.50 whether
you support the scheme or not. Of course you could just ignore
all the correspondence, but eventually that will end up with
bailiffs at your door and a bill of over £500, of which £270
would go straight to TFL.
Anyway, as google street view is not up to date with the new
signs installed since the latest ULEZ expansion, the only way to
assess the adequacy of the signage would be for you to go back
and get some photos.
#Post#: 9342--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 6, 2023, 2:52 am
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Yes I take your point
I will go over and take some pictures
Is there any defence regarding unlawful signage? I've read that
the signs may not be legally compliant. A chap named Noel
Wilcox successfully challenged TFL over fines received for
entering the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). He successfully argued
that the signage was unclear and consequently illegal, and I
believe he's taking it a step further with a similar challenge
to ULEZ signage which is more or less identical.
#Post#: 9344--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 6, 2023, 3:39 am
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Don't confuse the London Low Emission Zone, (LEZ), with the
London Ultra Low Emission Zone, (ULEZ), the two are different.
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone.
and
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone
#Post#: 9345--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 6, 2023, 3:44 am
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I'm not
The signage legislation applies to both doesn't it?
#Post#: 9369--------------------------------------------------
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
DIR By: BH1001
Date: November 6, 2023, 7:42 am
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I've just seen this on a social media site as an example text
for an appeal based upon signage
Anyone care to comment?
"Your ULEZ signage was not clear and visible enough. The signage
failed to display charge information, thereby contravening the
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD).
Schedule 10 of the TSRGD defines and outlines the requirements
for these signs, emphasizing the need for clear and visible
display of the charge amount, applicable time periods, and any
exemptions. This was not adhered to, and your request for
payment is consequently unlawful.
The legislation that outlines the requirements for "Charge
Information Signs" for Low Emission Zones (LEZs) is found in the
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD).
Specifically, Schedule 10 of the TSRGD provides detailed
specifications for traffic signs related to LEZs, including
charge information signs. Schedule 10 of the TSRGD defines a
"charge information sign" as a sign that indicates the amount of
the charge payable for entering an LEZ. The sign must be
displayed in a prominent position and be easily visible to
drivers. The sign must also include the following information:
The amount of the charge
The applicable time periods for the charge
Any exemptions from the charge
The TSRGD also specifies the design and layout of charge
information signs. The sign must be rectangular in shape and
have a white background with black lettering. The lettering must
be of a size that is easily readable from a distance. Local
authorities have some discretion in the design of charge
information signs, but they must ensure that the signs comply
with the general requirements of the TSRGD.
In August 2023, Hertfordshire scaffolder Noel Willcox won a
legal battle against your so-called "organization" over the
signage for London's Low Emission Zone (LEZ). Here is a summary
of the key points of the case:
Willcox was fined £11,500 for driving his company truck in and
out of its depot in Harefield, North West London. Willcox argued
that the LEZ signs were not clear or visible enough, and that he
had not been aware that he was entering the zone. The tribunal
ruled in Willcox's favour, saying that the LEZ signs were not
"authorised and lawful". The ruling may have implications for
the signage for the ULEZ, and for other drivers who have been
fined for entering the LEZ.
On the basis that there is no difference between that case and
this, we reject your request for payment."
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