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#Post#: 9182--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop
or stand
DIR By: Boxxer
Date: November 4, 2023, 11:58 am
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Hi everyone,
I received a PCN for stopped on a restricted bus stop which
obviously I didn't realised at the time. It was 8.28am and the
traffic was busy, I was doing a school run with my daughter and
my wife in the car. What happened was a few junctions back, a
car behind me on the right lane drove and scratched the back of
my car before turning right and drove off. I was feeling
desperate and while trying to rethink what had happened and
tried to remember its number plate. While I didn't want to stop
in the middle of the road to check for the damage of my car, the
bus driver behind me keep flashing its light and so without
thinking I drove into the bus stop and got off the car to
quickly check the car for about 10 seconds. Jumped back on the
car and just before I was about to drive away, then the bus
driver stopped next to me explaining he basically saw and have
captured everything with the bus camera, telling me to get his
bus number & number plate and contact TFL for evidence.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/XWknCn0/IMG-4917.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/XWknCn0https://i.ibb.co/YWbshfB/IMG-4919.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/YWbshfBhttps://i.ibb.co/Hxr1JJX/IMG-4920.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/Hxr1JJXhttps://i.ibb.co/BThHK1p/IMG-4921.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/BThHK1p
Here is a photo from the video that the bus driver stopped and
having a conversation with next to me
HTML https://i.ibb.co/NF7rw7H/Bus-Stopped.png
HTML https://ibb.co/NF7rw7H
Do I have any chances to fight for this? Many thanks in advance
for all your time & professional knowledge
#Post#: 9228--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 4, 2023, 4:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, the first thing you need to do is make a subject access
request for the bus video footage.
The number plate of the bus that stopped next to you is LJ61 CAA
and
HTML https://bustimes.org/vehicles/711
says that bus is on route
144, according to
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/who-runs-your-bus
route 144 is
operated by Arriva London North Ltd and according to
HTML https://ico.org.uk/ESDWebPages/Entry/Z5592665
the DPO is
sheltst@arriva.co.uk
Therefore you should email sheltst@arriva.co.uk right away
(hurry up as the footage is kept for a limited time only):
[indent]
Dear Arriva London North Ltd,
On 17 October 2023 I was involved in a road traffic collision
just before 8:28 am, I pulled over to check for damage to my car
and a TFL bus pulled over next to me, the number plate of that
bus is LJ61 CAA and my number plate is J44 MNY.
The bus driver told me that he had witnessed the accident, he
had caught everything on the bus CCTV and I should contact TFL
for a copy of the footage. This bus appears to run route 144,
and TFL's website tells me that route 144 is operated by Arriva
London North Ltd and that I should contact you directly for a
copy of the footage.
Would you therefore please provide a copy of the footage showing
this collision, I attach a copy of my driving licence and V5C as
proof of identity.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
While we wait for the footage, please tell us everything you can
about the collision.
This is the council video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SLWeeGOhUY
#Post#: 9265--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: Boxxer
Date: November 5, 2023, 5:53 am
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Thank you so much. Email sent and have also bcc to you.
It was at this junction, I was on the middle lane on Green lanes
going north to High road, the other car was on the right lane
turning right to Westbury Avenue. As the traffic light changed,
a police car at the opposite junction (High road) suddenly
turned on the siran and heading south to Green lanes. As I was
about the exit the yellow box junction, this car while tried to
avoid the police car had hit the right side of the back of my
car before turned into Westbury Avenue and left.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/6Pb0LXw/Screenshot-2023-11-05-at-11-28-25.png
HTML https://ibb.co/6Pb0LXw
The 144 bus must have been behind me and have seen what had
happened.
#Post#: 9269--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: November 5, 2023, 6:19 am
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TSRGD Shedule 7, part 6, para 4(2)(b) should apply
"a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances
beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order
to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;"
ie, another vehicle crashed into you, you were worried about the
amount of damage or possible risk if you continued driving so
pulled into a clear area.... don't use words like scratch which
minimise even though it may have turned out to only be a
scratch, as anyone who has been in a minor shunt will know, the
sound effects can be horrendous
#Post#: 9270--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 5, 2023, 6:29 am
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'without thinking drove into a bus stop'?
IMO, driving into it knowingly strengthens whatever case you may
have(i.e. other than your account we have no idea what
transpired with the driver).
I'm therefore starting with the premis that you knowingly
stopped at a bus stop.
As I understand it, facts in the order they occurred and with
the knowledge you had at the time i.e. not acquired later are:
Your vehicle was hit by a car in the rear;
A bus which was in the vicinity subsequently flashed you
repeatedly which you interpreted as meaning that they were
trying to bring something to your attention;
You therefore pulled into the bus stop, where it was reasonable
to assume the bus would be stopping in order to check with the
driver;
You checked the rear of your vehicle and waited for the bus
which the pulled alongside at which point **** the driver told
you *****;
And then you drove off.
IMO, there's no point drilling into the detail of the collision
i.e. where, how etc, the issue is what you reasonably inferred
from the driver's signals and why you stopped in the bus stop
area.
#Post#: 9273--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 5, 2023, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> IMO, there's no point drilling into the detail of the
collision i.e. where, how etc, the issue is what you reasonably
inferred from the driver's signals and why you stopped in the
bus stop area.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think the details of the collision are important. Looking at
the council video without context, it just looks like an
unjustified stop in a bus stop, and the bus that pulls up
alongside could be stopping to remonstrate about the car
stopping in a bus stop.
#Post#: 9276--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: November 5, 2023, 8:04 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
> I think the details of the collision are important. Looking at
the council video without context, it just looks like an
unjustified stop in a bus stop, and the bus that pulls up
alongside could be stopping to remonstrate about the car
stopping in a bus stop.
>
--- End Quote ---
Fully agree as it is the collision that is the root cause of it
all.
To be fair, HCA's synopsis includes it and is more or less what
I would be using as bare bones for a challenge.
Flesh will be needed such as the exemption and the info the bus
driver gave re CCTV
OP, keep an eye on timing, the actual footage would be good but
do not miss deadlines waiting for it.
#Post#: 9280--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 5, 2023, 8:21 am
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The point about the collision is that according to the OP the
bus driver is probably more au fait with these details than
them. I presented my input in the order that it would have
become known to the OP i.e. I don't want them to mix what they
knew prior to stopping with what they were informed after they
stopped and IMO these must be kept separate.
They stopped not just because they'd been a collision but
because the bus driver's indications gave them a legitimate
reason to believe that they had important - and otherwise
unknown to the OP - information regarding it.
And where would you stop other than in a bus stop in order to
act upon the warning from the bus driver?
The fine detail of the collision is secondary e.g. did they turn
left or right, blue car, black car or whatever etc. and although
sufficient needs to be included should not swamp the argument
regarding the contravention.
#Post#: 9291--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: Boxxer
Date: November 5, 2023, 11:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone for the input. All very valid, especially HCA
for pointing out the very important reason why I pulled into the
bus stop which was because of the constant flashing of the front
light by the bus driver behind.
I will post up a draft soon that follow HCA's suggestion while
waiting for the CCTV footage.
#Post#: 9349--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus
stop or stand
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: November 6, 2023, 5:26 am
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Just remember: the more salient representations you make, the
more they have to consider. This is a statutory duty.
Personally, I would include as much as relevant. It is
generally agreed on both forums (fora?) that many council
officers are not that fully-conversant with the law(s)!
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