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#Post#: 9156--------------------------------------------------
Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs allow
parking
DIR By: pepipooper
Date: November 4, 2023, 9:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
I was visiting a friend in Hayes and parked as I usually do
fully on the footpath, as you are supposed to on that road. I
was parked next to double yellows on the road as it was busy and
I have seen other cars parked there before. There was plenty of
space for pedestrians on the footpath next to my car. I realise
now that you're not supposed to do this, though the signage
isn't clear about which sections of the footpath you can park on
(it seems like all) and since I have seen other cars parked
there I assumed it was okay.
Received a PCN with contravention code 62 - parked with one or
more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other
than a carriageway. There are signs on both ends of the road
that tell you to park with all wheels on the footpath. Can I
challenge on the grounds of unclear signage/incorrect
contravention code or any other grounds?
PCN -
HTML https://postimg.cc/WhGmwyjc
Signs allowing parking -
HTML https://postimg.cc/S215dc10
Street view of the road -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZzXVtf6JTFWvaPh48
Thanks in advance.
(copied from my post on pepipoo.com)
#Post#: 9159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: November 4, 2023, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The council will say that the allowance of footway parking ends
with the start of the yellow lines or that the sign on St Mary's
walk apply neither are correct
The DYL prohibits waiting at any time from the property line to
the centre of the carriageway but that is not the contravention
you have been charged with,
This sign
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/mFSN84QDUhRDMEKt6
outside 9 St Mary's road starts the footway parking, there is
not an end of sign so as far as you know footway parking is
allowed simple informal challenge
Dear Mr Parking
I challenge the issue of PCN number xxxxxxxx on the basis that
the contravention did not occur.
Outside of number 9 St Mary's road is a sign instructing parking
on the footpath i passed this sign and parked there is not a
sign on St Mary's road between the sign at number 9 and where i
parked outside number 33 so i was parked as per the signage and
not in contravention. The PCN should now be cancelled as no
contravention occurred
#Post#: 9210--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 4, 2023, 3:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Go with Pastmybest's draft, the contravention is clearly not
sustainable as the signs allow footway parking at this location.
They could have issued a PCN for waiting in a restricted street
during prescribed hours, but it's far too late for that now.
#Post#: 9584--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: pepipooper
Date: November 8, 2023, 8:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> The council will say that the allowance of footway parking
ends with the start of the yellow lines or that the sign on St
Mary's walk apply neither are correct
>
> The DYL prohibits waiting at any time from the property line
to the centre of the carriageway but that is not the
contravention you have been charged with,
>
> This sign
>
>
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/mFSN84QDUhRDMEKt6
>
> outside 9 St Mary's road starts the footway parking, there is
not an end of sign so as far as you know footway parking is
allowed simple informal challenge
>
> Dear Mr Parking
>
> I challenge the issue of PCN number xxxxxxxx on the basis that
the contravention did not occur.
>
> Outside of number 9 St Mary's road is a sign instructing
parking on the footpath i passed this sign and parked there is
not a sign on St Mary's road between the sign at number 9 and
where i parked outside number 33 so i was parked as per the
signage and not in contravention. The PCN should now be
cancelled as no contravention occurred
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks Pastmybest and cp8759 for the replies. It's been a week
and a half since I got the ticket on the windscreen but still
haven't received anything in the mail. Should I wait for a
letter or go ahead with the informal challenge anyway?
#Post#: 9590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: November 8, 2023, 9:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Should I wait for a letter or go ahead with the informal
challenge anyway?
--- End Quote ---
Submit online and get screenshot/receipt. Get it in before the
discount expires and the Council will usually re-offer the
discount when they reject.
The PCN puts the ball in your court, unless you make a challenge
the next 'letter' from the Council will be the NtO.
#Post#: 12346--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: pepipooper
Date: December 13, 2023, 8:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
Thanks for the advice - I submitted the challenge as advised
within the 14 days (
HTML https://postimg.cc/QVYPQCXD).
I got a rejection letter on 09/12 (
HTML https://postimg.cc/sBVPvPGJ
-
pt1,
HTML https://postimg.cc/DS8Zw8BM
- pt2), but their explanation
for rejection makes no sense to me. They claim the sign only
applies in one direction and I was on the wrong side, but the
road is bookended by the same sign and I was between both. What
does their reasoning mean and is it valid? Please advise on how
to proceed.
Also, the letter is dated 22/11 which means I received it once
the 14 day discounted period had already passed. Is there
anything I can do about this?
The old image links expired so reuploaded here:
HTML https://postimg.cc/8jjhvPCq
- pcn
HTML https://postimg.cc/ts55pvv5
- road sign
Cheers
#Post#: 12548--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: pepipooper
Date: December 16, 2023, 8:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Would appreciate some help on this if anyone has any thoughts.
Thanks
#Post#: 12564--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 16, 2023, 4:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Their letter hints that the allowed parking area ends at the
double-yellow lines, so you should not have parked there because
of them, plus the sign indicating the end of off-carriagway
parking as per the GSV view. However, you haven't walloped for
parking by the double-yellow lines, but for parking
off-carriageway. I think the CEO made a mistake and should have
issued the PCN for parking adjacent to the double-yellows
because these cover the footways and verges, so you'd be totally
bang-to-rights, but for some reason didn't.
What we have found with a lot of these cases where the car was
parked outside the signed area, is that when the council made
its resolution to allow parking off-carriageway, it just named
the streets involved, and didn't bother to define the lengths
allowed in each street. Yours might be a similar case. Our
administrator, COP8759 knows this aspect in more detail than me,
so hopefully will respond.
#Post#: 12588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 17, 2023, 10:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This isn't to do with any resolution as such, their position is
impossible with or without one.
OP, the first thing I recommend is that you set out clearly the
situation as regards signs.
The authority will be aware that the council have placed a sign
to diagram 668 o/s no. 9 St. Mary's Road. The conveys the
meaning that on this side of the road a vehicle may park with 4
wheels on the footway. This permission remains in effect until
terminated by a sign to diagram 667.2. There is no such sign
between no. 9 and St. Mary's Walk. The CEO's photos show that I
was parked in this length of street and therefore permitted to
do so by virtue of this sign. For this purpose it is irrelevant
that I was parked within the scope of a waiting restriction
whose presence may not form a part of the authority's
consideration. Strangely, in the authority's rejection of my
informal representations reference is made to me being parked
'before a sign' which as explained above is totally incorrect.
What I would accept is that beyond my car in St. Mary's Walk
(situated by the flank wall of no.33 St. Mary's Road) are
further footway parking signs. However, these are conflicting
because one of these indicates the end of a non-existent
'two-wheel' parking area(at this point the sign o/s no. 9 still
has effect) while the other indicates the beginning of a
different permitted footway parking permission, with I may add a
non-specified sign which is therefore unlawful unless the
council have obtained the Secretary of State's authorisation.
In short:
My car was parked within a permitted '4-wheel' footway parking
area;
My car was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction
which I accept was poor parking on my part but not the
contravention in dispute;
The effect of the sign o/s no. 9 is conflicted by a mix of signs
o/s 33 St. Mary's Road(albeit situated in St. Mary's Walk), one
of which is prima facie unlawful.
In conclusion, the contravention did not occur and the authority
has no basis on which to reject these representations. The PCN
must therefore be cancelled. Should the authority not be minded
to do so, then they must give cogent reasons based upon evidence
and not, as in their earlier rejection, simply make statements
which are not supported by objective facts.
Yours,
Attachments:
Diagrams 668; 667.2 ( source Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions 2016);
GSV screenshots of signs o/s no. 9 and 33.
(you'll have to extract and add these yourself pl)
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
#Post#: 12662--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hillingdon PCN Code 62 parked on footpath, but road signs
allow parking
DIR By: pepipooper
Date: December 19, 2023, 12:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> This isn't to do with any resolution as such, their position
is impossible with or without one.
>
> OP, the first thing I recommend is that you set out clearly
the situation as regards signs.
>
> The authority will be aware that the council have placed a
sign to diagram 668 o/s no. 9 St. Mary's Road. The conveys the
meaning that on this side of the road a vehicle may park with 4
wheels on the footway. This permission remains in effect until
terminated by a sign to diagram 667.2. There is no such sign
between no. 9 and St. Mary's Walk. The CEO's photos show that I
was parked in this length of street and therefore permitted to
do so by virtue of this sign. For this purpose it is irrelevant
that I was parked within the scope of a waiting restriction
whose presence may not form a part of the authority's
consideration. Strangely, in the authority's rejection of my
informal representations reference is made to me being parked
'before a sign' which as explained above is totally incorrect.
What I would accept is that beyond my car in St. Mary's Walk
(situated by the flank wall of no.33 St. Mary's Road) are
further footway parking signs. However, these are conflicting
because one of these indicates the end of a non-existent
'two-wheel' parking area(at this point the sign o/s no. 9 still
has effect) while the other indicates the beginning of a
different permitted footway parking permission, with I may add a
non-specified sign which is therefore unlawful unless the
council have obtained the Secretary of State's authorisation.
>
> In short:
> My car was parked within a permitted '4-wheel' footway parking
area;
> My car was parked in contravention of a waiting restriction
which I accept was poor parking on my part but not the
contravention in dispute;
> The effect of the sign o/s no. 9 is conflicted by a mix of
signs o/s 33 St. Mary's Road(albeit situated in St. Mary's
Walk), one of which is prima facie unlawful.
>
> In conclusion, the contravention did not occur and the
authority has no basis on which to reject these representations.
The PCN must therefore be cancelled. Should the authority not be
minded to do so, then they must give cogent reasons based upon
evidence and not, as in their earlier rejection, simply make
statements which are not supported by objective facts.
>
> Yours,
>
> Attachments:
> Diagrams 668; 667.2 ( source Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions 2016);
> GSV screenshots of signs o/s no. 9 and 33.
>
> (you'll have to extract and add these yourself pl)
>
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made
>
--- End Quote ---
How do I submit this challenge? Do I have to wait until I
receive a NtO first?
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