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#Post#: 95648--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: Southpaw82 Date: October 26, 2025, 12:55 pm
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[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg95616#msg95616
date=1761488119]
The only plausible explanation
[/quote]
Or your (collective) observation skills are poor. Or your
(collective) memories are poor. Or…
So not the only plausible explanation really.
There’s a principle used in the civil courts called Gestmin. Its
basic tenet is that documentary evidence is superior to witness
recollection. Case in point.
#Post#: 96693--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: ukdriver1981 Date: November 3, 2025, 3:32 pm
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It was neither poor memory or observation. We have 20+ year
licences. We are both professionals we have no points and never
had them. We both saw the limit and it was 50. Our child even
saw 50. So what are you actually telling all three of us - that
we made it up? No the only thing that is bull about this entire
thing is that their second photo shows the roundels being on 40
long after we passed them - not before, or just as we went
under. Why not?
#Post#: 96695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: Southpaw82 Date: November 3, 2025, 3:49 pm
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[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96693#msg96693
date=1762205552]
So what are you actually telling all three of us - that we made
it up?
[/quote]
Your observation skills are quite poor it seems because I never
said that. It appears that the 40 mph limit had been in place
for about an hour before you activated the camera.
The real point you ought to think of is what can be proven in
court.
#Post#: 96698--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: NewJudge Date: November 3, 2025, 4:14 pm
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[quote]No the only thing that is bull about this entire thing is
that their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long
after we passed them - not before, or just as we went under.
[/quote]
Except that all all the photos you have posted here - those of
your car and of the gantry - were taken at the same site within
a second of each other. That is the evidence the police will use
to convict your partner.
By all means persuade your partner to plead Not Guilty. You can
both give your evidence that you saw the gantry sign displaying
"50". The court will have to decide whether to accept your
testimony (your recollections of the event) or that of the
police (consisting of timed photographs). If convicted your
partner is unlikely to see any change from £1,000.
#Post#: 96713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: ivanleo Date: November 3, 2025, 6:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96693#msg96693
date=1762205552]
their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long after we
passed them - not before, or just as we went under. Why not?
[/quote]
The first photo of the car is timed 19:54:26 and the photo of
the gantry is timed 19:54:27, so I'm not sure "long after" is
accurate. These cameras have a minimum 10 second delay in
enforcement after a speed limit change, and if challenged the
police will turn up with expert evidence to show how the
equipment works. The record also shows the 40 mph limit had been
in force for over an hour at the time when you went past the
camera.
Are you basically saying that the sign said 50 mph at 19:54:25
or 19:54:26 when you went past it, and it changed in the split
second between 19:54:26 and 19:54:27, and the system that is
meant to pause enforcement for 10 seconds was faulty, and the
record showing when the limit last changes was also faulty?
You can advance that as a defence if you wish, but you will
probably want to instruct an expert who can provide expert
evidence about how the system could have malfunctioned, because
the Crown Prosecution Service will undoubtedly instruct an
expert of their own if challenged.
This can be an expensive approach though, see this case:
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063
#Post#: 96722--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: Freecall Date: November 4, 2025, 2:32 am
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[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96693#msg96693
date=1762205552]
We are both professionals......
[/quote]
That should give your advocate something to work with in court.
???
#Post#: 96805--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: ukdriver1981 Date: November 4, 2025, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Southpaw82 link=topic=8538.msg96695#msg96695
date=1762206597]
[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96693#msg96693
date=1762205552]
So what are you actually telling all three of us - that we made
it up?
[/quote]
Your observation skills are quite poor it seems because I never
said that. It appears that the 40 mph limit had been in place
for about an hour before you activated the camera.
The real point you ought to think of is what can be proven in
court.
[/quote]
You said our 'collective' observation skills are poor.
I appreciate what you are saying about speed limit duration not
changing. I have been aware of this from the off. It is not
correct. I would not write to the Highways Agency, the
Ticketing Office and on forums if I had any doubt whatsoever
that we even might have been slightly wrong about what we saw.
We discussed it immediately and kept discussing it. I predicted
that something had gone wrong with the roundel/gantry and we
would get an invalid NIP. When we got it there was no shock, no
oooh what the hell is this? or surprise - I just knew it was
coming and it would be wrong. That is why I am here.
#Post#: 96808--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: ukdriver1981 Date: November 4, 2025, 11:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=NewJudge link=topic=8538.msg96698#msg96698
date=1762208081]
[quote]No the only thing that is bull about this entire thing is
that their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long
after we passed them - not before, or just as we went under.
[/quote]
Except that all all the photos you have posted here - those of
your car and of the gantry - were taken at the same site within
a second of each other. That is the evidence the police will use
to convict your partner.
By all means persuade your partner to plead Not Guilty. You can
both give your evidence that you saw the gantry sign displaying
"50". The court will have to decide whether to accept your
testimony (your recollections of the event) or that of the
police (consisting of timed photographs). If convicted your
partner is unlikely to see any change from £1,000.
[/quote]
The photographic evidence does not showing us prior to or
passing under the gantry. That evidence they have in their
possesion - it is a full defence to this.
#Post#: 96810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: DWMB2 Date: November 4, 2025, 11:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96805#msg96805
date=1762277034]
You said our 'collective' observation skills are poor.
[/quote]
He originally suggested that a plausible explanation was that
your observation skills may have been poor. That's not the same
as saying your observation skills are or were poor (although on
this occasion it does seem that what you saw is not the same as
what Southpaw actually wrote...).
What happened, what plausible explanations there may be, and
what can be proven in court may all be different things. As has
already been suggested, the most important one is the latter.
#Post#: 96813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
By: ukdriver1981 Date: November 4, 2025, 11:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=cp8759 link=topic=8538.msg96713#msg96713
date=1762216316]
[quote author=ukdriver1981 link=topic=8538.msg96693#msg96693
date=1762205552]
their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long after we
passed them - not before, or just as we went under. Why not?
[/quote]
The first photo of the car is timed 19:54:26 and the photo of
the gantry is timed 19:54:27, so I'm not sure "long after" is
accurate. These cameras have a minimum 10 second delay in
enforcement after a speed limit change, and if challenged the
police will turn up with expert evidence to show how the
equipment works. The record also shows the 40 mph limit had been
in force for over an hour at the time when you went past the
camera.
Are you basically saying that the sign said 50 mph at 19:54:25
or 19:54:26 when you went past it, and it changed in the split
second between 19:54:26 and 19:54:27, and the system that is
meant to pause enforcement for 10 seconds was faulty, and the
record showing when the limit last changes was also faulty?
You can advance that as a defence if you wish, but you will
probably want to instruct an expert who can provide expert
evidence about how the system could have malfunctioned, because
the Crown Prosecution Service will undoubtedly instruct an
expert of their own if challenged.
This can be an expensive approach though, see this case:
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063
[/quote]
Thank you for your reply.
Whilst it may seem implausible yes I am talking about finite
moments here, as there is no alternative. Their photo of the
roundels is at 19:54:27. Of course they will show my vehicle at
the exact same time in support of that. Why isn't there a photo
of my vehicle passing underneath is the question and answer to
all of this. Yes it did happen in seconds and I would say a
couple because we have travelled about 40 metres in that time.
There is either an issue with the grace period not being
implemented on the particular roundel/ gantry camera, or and I
have read that the speed limits can be switched manually by an
actual person yes a person - remember there was a far worse
incident (of the two we had come through) up ahead and I think
someone has panicked and grace period has not operated (perhaps
this does not happen when a manual override occurs). The entire
motorway was closed off ahead and everyone was forced to slip
off. A serious incident had taken place ahead and yes the speed
ought to have been 40, but it wasn't. None of what had happened
ahead could be observed until passing under the gantry as you
can see yourself from the bend in the motorway.
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