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#Post#: 95320--------------------------------------------------
Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: EssEss Date: October 23, 2025, 12:43 pm
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HTML https://ibb.co/Z64WxvzB
The above - I hope my image makes it - can be seen in Arundel
(///nosedive.ears.digress) although I have a feeling this
question applies to many other locations in the UK.
It's in a spot which has been used for some time by campervans.
The council decided to put a stop to it (probably because not
everyone who spent the night there felt inclined to remove their
rubbish when they left in the morning)
Looking on
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/on-street-parking-control-signs-and-road-markings
Am I deluding myself: to be enforceable there must be yellow
lines on the road and possibly even signage at either the entry
and exit point the street or maybe the town or area itself?
#Post#: 95323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Bustagate Date: October 23, 2025, 12:59 pm
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Interesting sign. I can't find it in TSRGD 2016. That doesn't
mean that the sign isn't lawful. The council could have obtained
special permission for it from DfT. I searched
HTML https://dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/?search=West+Sussex
and looked
through the 18 hits: nothing about signs for motor caravans.
It's still possible that DfT have authorised it but it hasn't
got onto their database yet. My suspicion, however, would be
that they haven't and the council are pulling a fast one.
The general policy adopted with traffic signs is that "motorised
caravans" are a subspecies of caravan and that signs show a
towed caravan. That makes sense to me: otherwise I look forward
to caravan owners parking their cars with attached caravan
beneath the "Motor caravans" sign.
Councils' usual practice is to ban parking overnight. The
problem is enforcement. The council has to prove that the
vehicle was parked during the prohibited hours. If it's a car
park with well-defined entrances and exits, they can use cameras
and ANPR; on an ordinary road they've got to have someone going
along during the prohibited hours. I expect they're scheduling
someone to go along between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. That's a time when
they probably don't want to be banning parking.
I found this article
HTML https://www.gaukmotorbuzz.com/news/caravan-owners-issued-parking-ban-after-residents-complaints<br
/>about a TRO which the council made to ban motor caravans. It
reported that 14 signs had been removed "unlawfully". It looks
to me as though the signs had been placed unlawfully and that
whoever removed them was taking the law into his own hands.
To sum up, the council are in a bind. They can pass a TRO to ban
motor caravans overnight, but there are no official signs for
this. The only way to implement the TRO lawfully is to obtain
permission from DfT for special signs and then place them. They
may find that DfT won't agree to the signs or suggest that the
council should ban overnight parking instead. Either way, it's
not as easy as the council thinks.
#Post#: 95356--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: EssEss Date: October 23, 2025, 4:28 pm
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The article in your link is referring to the location I am
talking about.
We visited last weekend thinking that we might stay overnight.
Whilst I had my doubts about the enforceability I decided I'd
rather do without the time consuming hassle of getting a ticket
cancelled, should we get one. Perhaps a mini success for the
councils involved.
The article staes it was residents' complaints that brought
about the restriction however looking on the satellite image on
Googlemaps, there are no residences in the vicinity.
#Post#: 95366--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Ducato Date: October 23, 2025, 6:20 pm
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There’s often an excessive amount of vans parked along Mill
Road, sadly the occasional stench and more obvious, trails from
grey and black waste often being dumped from open drain taps as
they drive away can make a road pretty vile to walk alongside
especially in the summer
When we last visited we preferred to pay the modest cost to stay
in the Mill Road Car Park, far nicer and safer than sleeping
with cars passing inches from our heads.
In certain locations around the country it has got so out of
hand it’s not surprising councils are trying to stem it.
Long rows of often tatty vans aren’t a pretty sight and for
some, simple common sense of driving elsewhere when a location
is obviously rammed clearly does not compute!
#Post#: 95391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: MyronAub Date: October 24, 2025, 5:47 am
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[quote author=Ducato link=topic=8504.msg95366#msg95366
date=1761261621]In certain locations around the country it has
got so out of hand it’s not surprising councils are trying to
stem it.[/quote]
It seems to be the latest fad; only yesterday yet another friend
Whatsapped me a photo of their latest acquisition, a classic VW
campervan, which makes it the fourth or fifth friend to have got
one in the last 12 months.
#Post#: 95405--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Ducato Date: October 24, 2025, 8:12 am
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[member=3617]Bustagate[/member]
Thanks for the link above, quite interesting do you know if
there is a similar one where TROs can be looked up?
IIRC a few years ago in Scotland hundreds of “no overnight
parking” signs were put up and many were challenged and later
removed or were unenforceable because of the wording
Many in the motor caravan community seem to think if a sign
doesn’t have a related bylaw or TRO on it that it isn’t official
and it’s very common practice amongst certain elements of that
community to decide they have the right to remove and disobey
them. This practice is regularly encouraged on anti social media
platforms such as Facebook
Maybe the catalyst for this behaviour stemmed from what had
happened in Scotland.
#Post#: 95409--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Bustagate Date: October 24, 2025, 9:27 am
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[member=6309]Ducato[/member] It's up to local authorities as to
whether they make their TROs available on their website. Some
do. Most don't. If you get a ticket, they don't tell you at that
stage what the TRO is, but they do put it in their evidence if
it goes to appeal before an adjudicator. If you get a ticket,
try phoning or emailing the council to ask for the TRO. You can
also put in a Freedom of Information request for it, which they
are obliged to answer (but not before you have to make
representations against a PCN).
Legally-enforceable parking restrictions always specify the
hours when the restrictions apply. "Overnight" isn't a
recognised term. That creates problems for the council which
wants to apply restrictions without the cost of sending someone
out in the small hours to photograph and ticket the vehicles.
West Sussex have at least specified the hours, so the
restriction is potentially enforceable. Their problem is that
when local authorities make TROs, regulation 18 of The Local
Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales)
Regulations 1996
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18<br
/>requires them to place traffic signs to show the effects of th
e
order. These must be "proper" traffic signs as specified in The
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made
(as
amended) or as specially authorised by DfT. If the Council
doesn't do this,
[list]
[li]its actions aren't lawful and can be challenged;[/li]
[li]there is well-defined case law that, if there isn't adequate
signage (meaning "proper" traffic signs) for a restriction, no
contravention occurs and there is no civil liability.
[/li]
[/list]
Having said that, it's a load of hassle to challenge a PCN, so
many people pay up within two weeks of receiving a PCN so as to
qualify for the "discount".
If you do get a PCN at a site where there's a sign which doesn't
specify times or which applies only to motor caravans, when you
ask the council for the TRO, also say that you don't think the
sign is in accordance with TSRGD 2016 and that you'd like to see
their special authorisation from DfT to place that sign on the
public highway. Tell them that, as Mr (later Lord Justice)
Beatson said at paragraph 65 of this judgment in R (Oxfordshire
CC) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010] EWHC 894 (Admin)
HTML http://
[quote]
The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are
prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for
securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is
made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do
not in fact provide adequate information no offence is
committed; see James v Cavey [1967] 2 QB 676. Such information
is a requirement and, as Jackson J stated in R (Barnett LBC) v
Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin) at [41], if the
statutory conditions are not met the financial liability does
not arise.[/quote]
In other words, it's a prerequisite that the signs are specified
in TSRGD 2016 or specially authorised by Dft. Even if they are,
that isn't enough. The signs must provide adequate information
of the restriction.
#Post#: 95419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: John U.K. Date: October 24, 2025, 10:49 am
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[quote author=Bustagate link=topic=8504.msg95409#msg95409
date=1761316053]
[member=6309]Ducato[/member] It's up to local authorities as to
whether they make their TROs available on their website. Some
do. Most don't. If you get a ticket, they don't tell you at that
stage what the TRO is, but they do put it in their evidence if
it goes to appeal before an adjudicator. If you get a ticket,
try phoning or emailing the council to ask for the TRO. You can
also put in a Freedom of Information request for it, which they
are obliged to answer (but not before you have to make
representations against a PCN).. . .
[/quote]
A lot of TROs may be found here
HTML https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/tro-library/
#Post#: 95457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Bustagate Date: October 24, 2025, 1:02 pm
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[member=5]John U.K.[/member] Thank you. Unusually, West Sussex
appears to keep the TRO Library up to date. It contains WEST
SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL // ((ARUN DISTRICT)(PARKING PLACES &
TRAFFIC REGULATION) // (CONSOLIDATION) ORDER 2010) // (ARUNDEL:
MILL ROAD AMENDMENT) ORDER 2025
HTML https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/West%20Sussex%20-%20Arun/8350_Arun_MillRd_Am_20250324.pdf.<br
/>
The TRO is map-based. It was made on 20th March 2025 and came
into operation on 24th March 2025. It purports to restrict motor
caravans (whatever they are) from waiting between 10.00pm and
9.00am any day.
Parts 3 and 4 of TSRGD 2016 Schedule 7
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made<br
/>specify road markings for waiting restrictions. The language i
s
a bit technical, so I'll just state their effect. There are
precisely two types of waiting restriction:
[list type=decimal]
[li]Double yellow lines: Waiting of vehicles prohibited at all
times[/li]
[li]Single yellow lines: Waiting of vehicles prohibited for a
time that is not continuous throughout the year[/li]
[/list]
For each of these restrictions, the yellow lines MUST be placed
where the restriction applies.
That's it. No fancy stuff about different classes of vehicle. I
should be surprised if DfT agreed to have waiting restrictions
which were selectively applied.
What DfT might accept would be parking bays (diagram 1028.6)
which were restricted to vehicles other than motor caravans.
These would have a single yellow line at the edge of the
carriageway and dashed white lines delineating the parking bays
with upright signs setting out what could be parked and when.
I'm not convinced that permitting parking at all times except by
motor caravans between 10pm and 9am would be a valid parking
restriction, but West Sussex could give it a try.
Another thing which they could do would be to paint the outer
edge of the parking bay 1.8m from the kerb. This would prohibit
vehicles more than 1.8m wide (including SUVs) from parking, as
well as those with less-wide vehicles who are unable to park
next to the kerb.
#Post#: 95990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Enforceable restriction sign(s)
By: Bustagate Date: October 28, 2025, 4:14 pm
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I've looked some more into what sort of parking restrictions
councils can impose on specific classes of vehicle. The answer
is that they can restrict HGVs and buses separately or together
using controlled parking zones. The signs are here
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/on-street-parking-control-signs-and-road-markings#controlled-parking-zones.<br
/>If you scroll down a little, you'll find signs which include a
black lorry with "5 t" in white on it. As the text explains:
[quote]
In some areas, local authorities operate special goods vehicle
waiting restrictions. Usually these apply to goods vehicles of
over 5 or 7.5 tonnes maximum gross weight. Where the same
restrictions apply throughout a zone, usually overnight, the
times are indicated on a zone entry sign. Within the zone there
are no yellow lines (unless there are other waiting restrictions
applying to all vehicles), but there should be repeater signs on
each side of every street as a reminder. There are equivalent
signs for buses with the bus symbol, and signs that apply to
both goods vehicles and buses.[/quote]
As there are no yellow lines associated with these restrictions,
there have to be upright repeater signs on plates to alert
drivers to the restrictions. There also have to be signs at the
end of the zone to indicate that it's ended.
West Sussex appear to be attempting to create their own
equivalent for motor caravans, but without the entry and exit
signs for the zone. As it's a completely new type of controlled
parking zone not covered by TSRGD, they'd need special
authorisation from DfT. DfT would likely insist that it included
a symbol which represented motor caravans; this would be a first
for British traffic signs.
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