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#Post#: 8846--------------------------------------------------
PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy Road
DIR By: allondon
Date: October 31, 2023, 4:05 pm
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This topic was moved from Pepipoo where I registered years ago
(sorry to hear it is not supported any longer).
I got a PCN for parking on Saturday 7 October in Bittacy road,
nw7 1bp.
"16 Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid permit or
clearly displaying a valid physical permit when required."
I challenged the PCN on the grounds that according to the
signage the permit would be required: 1) Monday-Friday 10-11am
or 2) Event days 1-6pm. 7 October was a Saturday and there were
no signs advising on the next event's day and time.
The challenge was promptly rejected as "The onus is on the
driver to familiarise themselves on the days on which events are
taking place".
Location link is:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/JR7y5Yf8rLG44zoY6.
Pictures on Google Drive:
HTML https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iUFpvUiMdfO_z2avuU-Ex57oq0SDVj2F
Bittacy Road can be accessed from either Bittacy Hill directly
or via Sanders Lane.
TimePhoto_20231013_082313 and TimePhoto_20231013_082347 show the
entrance to Bittacy Road - no event information or CPZ signs.
TimePhoto_20231023_122354 shows the entrance from the Sanders
Lane - ditto.
TimePhoto_20231023_122508 shows the exit from Inglis Way to
Bittacy Hill before turning to either Sanders Lane or Bittacy
Road - no CPZ or event signs there either.
TimePhoto_20231007_155459 and TimePhoto_20231007_155748 show the
signage in Bittacy Road where the car was parked.
PCN on Google Drive : 20231029_123006.
Council response on Google Drive: 20231031_122908,
20231031_122811, 20231031_122921.
The evidence from the council only confirms that the car was
parked in the street (which is not challenged), but not any CPZ
or event signs.
The next street - Bittacy Rise - has CPZ signs at the entrance.
Bittacy Road and Sanders Lane have none.
My intention is to fight all the way to the traffic court as the
council failed to advertise event days anywhere on route and I
was able to take pictures of all street corners.
There is no way for the motorist coming from Inglis Way to know
about CPZ or event days as there is no relevant signage on
route.
Thanks in advance.
#Post#: 8849--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 31, 2023, 4:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, but we need direct links to documents and GSV links you
are using. They don't work, probably because you cut-and-pasted
your narrative from Pepipoo.
Using your GSV link, straightaway, I saw the CPZ sign, with, at
the bottom, a date for the next event day.
Here's the one on the RH side of the road
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6089782,-0.2102079,3a,15y,164.36h,90.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgfM94adl1K6XDMue-rbldg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
and here's the one on the left
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6088268,-0.2100848,3a,15y,98.68h,94.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKd3BHQTSc_TSvttALF_iAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
and if you turn the car round and drive the other way, there is
a sign for a different zone, with parking times outside the
event days.
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6088268,-0.2100848,3a,15y,98.68h,94.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKd3BHQTSc_TSvttALF_iAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Here's a sign on Bittacy Road by a yellow line
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6078595,-0.2090802,3a,19.3y,290.47h,86.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sORhbfFqnV34MHwt-jXFRQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
So, signs according to GSV March 2022 are there, the only
argument after that is, was the date of the next event displayed
?
#Post#: 8875--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 1, 2023, 4:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for responding.
Here is the link to the photos on Google Drive again - tested in
another browser without cookies.
HTML https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iUFpvUiMdfO_z2avuU-Ex57oq0SDVj2F.
I acknowledge that there are CPZ signs along Bittacy Hill,
however they are well above Sanders Lane or well bellow Bittacy
Road, therefore if you enter either street from Inglis Way you
only see signs with parking restrictions ("1-6pm on event days")
but no information about the event days.
Here is the link to the map:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lxqrzqs8oHs2Eioc6
And the Street View:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/xZfBgy9dbufHQPLLA
(Bittacy Road - no CPZ or event day signs at the entrance)
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/tbQN9wJsnQzUzXRD7
(Sanders Lane - as above)
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/c2Cb6TU7vWBJtPZN8
(Inglis Way - exit towards Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road).
Photos on Google Drive have up-to-date details about all these
locations.
Only those driving along Bittacy Hill may be able to see the
CPZ/Event date signs.
#Post#: 8933--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 1, 2023, 4:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well if there's a route into the CPZ with no CPZ signs then it's
an easy challenge. Barnet is seriously deluded if they think
there's some overarching legal duty to inform oneself of events,
there is no such duty. The duty is on the authority to provide
adequate signage.
In the circumstances, just wait for the notice to owner.
#Post#: 8943--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 1, 2023, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you.
It came to my mind that Inglis Way and the surrounding area is a
new development and Barnet council has not considered adding the
signage. Therefore, when turning left from Inglis Way and then
turning right to either Sanders Lane or Bittacy Road no CPZ or
Event date signs exist. The only signs on Sanders Lane and
Bittacy Road are those on my pictures - restrictions on the
event day without advertising the event day.
My understanding of Traffic Signs Regulations and General
Directions is that every street junction ("entry point") in the
CPZ needs to have a CPZ sign with details of restrictions,
otherwise signs need to be placed every 60m.
Will wait for the NTO.
#Post#: 8964--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 1, 2023, 6:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: allondon link ---
>
> My understanding of Traffic Signs Regulations and General
Directions is that every street junction ("entry point") in the
CPZ needs to have a CPZ sign with details of restrictions,
otherwise signs need to be placed every 60m.
>
--- End Quote ---
The key issue is that the signage must be adequate. If you'd
taken a route into the CPZ that took you past a CPZ sign, you
couldn't claim the signage was inadequate just because a route
you didn't take didn't have any signs.
However in your case you did take a route that had no signs, so
a diligent motorist taking the route that you took would not
pass any signs, so the signage is inadequate.
The relevant regulation is here
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents.
#Post#: 8968--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 1, 2023, 6:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Agree ! I did a virtual drive along your route, and indeed on
Bittacy Hill, you see CPZ signs just after you can make the turn
into Bittacy Road.
However, you are actually in another CPZ as announced on this
sign in the opposite direction: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/EjK8hqVwkJZS6aZh8
But there is no sign like this on your route.
It seems Barnet made a complete Pot-Mess of this special CPZ as
outlined by one of our contributors: -
HTML https://barnetpost.co.uk/2022/02/17/council-urged-to-repay-parking-fines-following-error-in-traffic-order/
Anyway, I did a little virtual drive from the north end of
Bittacy Hill, and eventually found this CPZ sign: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Lnez5knJP4iwLPfE7
The mini-roundabout where Inglis Way joins Bittacy Hill is
between the two sign locations above
So the plain fact is that there should be a CPZ sign here, as
you come up to Bittacy Hill, and there ain't !
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Yzm6NarLtmav94UF6
Surely a slam-dunk win at London Tribunals ?
#Post#: 9111--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 3, 2023, 12:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Completely agree and appreciate the time spent on virtual
journey.
Not sure if this is going to be an easy win, but I'm inclined to
fight.
Will share my draft representation after the Notice to owner
arrives.
#Post#: 9113--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 3, 2023, 1:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: allondon link ---
>
> Completely agree and appreciate the time spent on virtual
journey.
>
> Not sure if this is going to be an easy win, but I'm inclined
to fight.
>
> Will share my draft representation after the Notice to owner
arrives.
>
--- End Quote ---
The NtO is sent to the name and address on the V5 for the
vehicle. Are these details correct and up-to-date ?
#Post#: 9120--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN: Barnet - 16 Parked in a permit space or zone - Bittacy
Road
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 3, 2023, 3:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the details are correct in DVLA.
It surprises me I can't find any other challenges to the PCN in
these 2 Barnet roads that don't have CPZ sign or event
information. Council is raking money on any event day.
Many thanks to everyone!
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