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#Post#: 92679--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: taffer87
Date: October 3, 2025, 6:51 am
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Any trees works took place? this case from yesterday...
>
> -------
>
>
> Case reference 2250219259
> Appellant xxxxxxx
> Authority London Borough of Newham
> VRM BG66OGB
> PCN Details
> PCN PN22154287
> Contravention date 31 Mar 2025
> Contravention time 09:25:00
> Contravention location Lincoln Road
> Penalty amount N/A
> Contravention Parked restricted street during prescribed hours
> Referral date -
> Decision Date 02 Oct 2025
> Adjudicator Edward Houghton
> Appeal decision Appeal allowed
> Direction
> cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund forthwith the
penalty charge and the release fees paid.
>
> Reasons
>
> I adjourned this case for the following reason:-
>
> “In view of the Appellant’s evidence the Council is asked to
provide evidence that the works in question were actually in
progress.
>
> The Appellant is asked to clarify on what basis his father
believed he was entitled to park in the bay without apparently
checking the sign (in which case he could not have failed to see
the yellow suspension sign)”
>
> The Appellant has responded but no further evidence has been
received from the Council.
>
> The Appellant states in his appeal that “It’s worth noting
that in our area, suspension signs are often placed with claims
of scheduled tree works, yet on many occasions-including this
one-no work actually occurs.”. There is no sign of any works
being carried out in the CEO’s photographs, and the Council has
been unable to provide any evidence ( which one would have
thought to be easily obtainable) as to when if at all any such
works took place.
>
> Direction 6 Part 2 Traffic Signs General Directions 2016
provides as follows:-
>
> “6.-(1) Paragraph (2) applies to a sign placed for conveying
to traffic a warning, information, requirement, restriction or
prohibition of a temporary nature.
>
> (2) The sign must not remain in place for longer than it is
needed.”
>
>
> The sign in question in this case is clearly indicates a
prohibition of a temporary nature,. and it seems to me on the
evidence that the balance of probabilities is that it was in
breach of this prohibition. In the circumstances it is
unnecessary to consider issues of clarity and the Appeal must be
allowed
>
--- End Quote ---
unfortunately yes some tree works took place later in day
#Post#: 92682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 3, 2025, 7:16 am
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OP, only just seen this.
With respect, IMO the argument re wrong contravention is itself
wrong..but see below.
As far as can be seen, the restriction was imposed under a Temp
Traffic Order, s14 RTRA refers.
7)An order or notice made or issued under this section may—
(a)suspend any statutory provision to which this subsection
applies; or
(b)for either of the reasons or for the purpose mentioned in
subsection (1) above suspend any such provision without imposing
any such restriction or prohibition as is mentioned in
subsection (1) or (2) above.
(8)Subsection (7) above applies to—
(a)any statutory provision of a description which could have
been contained in an order or notice under this section;
(b)an order under section 32(1)(b), 35, 45, 46 or 49 of this Act
or any such order as is mentioned in paragraph 11(1) of Schedule
10 to this Act
A TTO may suspend the application of any s45 TMO which
designated the parking place and substitute a different
restriction, in this case no waiting. The council could have
chosen to simply suspend the parking place but chose to go the
TTO route, for reasons which are probably explained within the
order which tantalisingly is not in any of the photos albeit
that it is key. At present there's no order in evidence, so IMO
you could argue that the order did not apply to where you were
parked i.e. it is the order which creates the restriction, not
the words on a sign, and without that order being in evidence
you challenge that the restriction applied and therefore that
the contravention took place. If the authority reject these
representations then they must produce a copy of the order
relied upon with any response.
#Post#: 92683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: taffer87
Date: October 3, 2025, 7:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, only just seen this.
>
> With respect, IMO the argument re wrong contravention is
itself wrong..but see below.
>
> As far as can be seen, the restriction was imposed under a
Temp Traffic Order, s14 RTRA refers.
>
>
> 7)An order or notice made or issued under this section may—
>
> (a)suspend any statutory provision to which this subsection
applies; or
>
> (b)for either of the reasons or for the purpose mentioned in
subsection (1) above suspend any such provision without imposing
any such restriction or prohibition as is mentioned in
subsection (1) or (2) above.
>
> (8)Subsection (7) above applies to—
>
> (a)any statutory provision of a description which could have
been contained in an order or notice under this section;
>
> (b)an order under section 32(1)(b), 35, 45, 46 or 49 of this
Act or any such order as is mentioned in paragraph 11(1) of
Schedule 10 to this Act
>
> A TTO may suspend the application of any s45 TMO which
designated the parking place and substitute a different
restriction, in this case no waiting. The council could have
chosen to simply suspend the parking place but chose to go the
TTO route, for reasons which are probably explained within the
order which tantalisingly is not in any of the photos albeit
that it is key. At present there's no order in evidence, so IMO
you could argue that the order did not apply to where you were
parked i.e. it is the order which creates the restriction, not
the words on a sign, and without that order being in evidence
you challenge that the restriction applied and therefore that
the contravention took place. If the authority reject these
representations then they must produce a copy of the order
relied upon with any response.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks is it also then important to mention that the signpost
council include in evidence is after a disabled pay so not
relevant for where the car was parked (whihc was close to
another lamp post - whose photos are not in evidence)
#Post#: 92686--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 3, 2025, 7:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As long as the signs are present and two of them 'book-end' the
suspended area(pl note that the standard is 'on or near') then
frankly IMO they could put them on every tree, post or whatever
in the street. Their duty is to convey the restriction. If you
were parked within the area specified and if there was such a
sign ahead of you and behind(behind is more fundamental because
you are deemed to have passed this whereas what lies ahead
hasn't been seen) then IMO you are within the area specified on
the written parts of the signs. You seem to acknowledge that
there were signs ahead of and behind you, is this correct?
But what did the order itself provide as regards the restriction
and how this was to be signed. The RTRA makes provision for regs
to be made dealing with TTOs, and here they are:
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/schedule/made
Part III of the Schedule deals with 'traffic signs'. I think
that what's been used would satisfy an adjudicator.
#Post#: 92701--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: taffer87
Date: October 3, 2025, 8:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> As long as the signs are present and two of them 'book-end'
the suspended area(pl note that the standard is 'on or near')
then frankly IMO they could put them on every tree, post or
whatever in the street. Their duty is to convey the restriction.
If you were parked within the area specified and if there was
such a sign ahead of you and behind(behind is more fundamental
because you are deemed to have passed this whereas what lies
ahead hasn't been seen) then IMO you are within the area
specified on the written parts of the signs. You seem to
acknowledge that there were signs ahead of and behind you, is
this correct?
>
> But what did the order itself provide as regards the
restriction and how this was to be signed. The RTRA makes
provision for regs to be made dealing with TTOs, and here they
are:
>
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/schedule/made
>
> Part III of the Schedule deals with 'traffic signs'. I think
that what's been used would satisfy an adjudicator.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks my point was more that the council should be required to
show signage in the post that is relevant to me (not a post
further ahead which would be considered a completely different
parking area as there was a disabled bay in the middle).
Re: your eaelier post what if the council then produces the
"order" that is not in evidence? Will they only be required to
produce this in Tribunal stage when I will have the full penalty
to pay if they do produce it. Sorry its all very technical so I
am not understanding it fully.
Thank you and everyone for the continued help
#Post#: 92706--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 3, 2025, 9:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You are specifically asking for it at this stage. IMO, given
that you were otherwise legally parked(I assume), then as the
temporary signs need authority, as much as anything else because
the regular traffic signs were still in place and uncovered, AND
as the order was on display but not in focus they should provide
if they reject, which they probably would.
Was parked here and missed the parking suspension signs (as I
think they removed the old ones and put new ones at same time -
they have a habit of not removing old ones for weeks). Is there
anything that could help me get out of the fine because of any
irregularity by the council on signage or the PCN itself?
Appreciate it's totally my fault.
You are looking for technical arguments which at this stage
don't often carry much weight with authorities.
#Post#: 92707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: October 3, 2025, 9:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Fighting PCNs is a bit of a tightrope walk sometimes. Experts
often walk the tightrope not knowing where they will end up, 89%
of the time I get across safely, 11% of the time I fall off. To
achieve your objective you have to walk the walk. We get better
at walking each time we do it.
#Post#: 92738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: taffer87
Date: October 3, 2025, 12:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you. Yes appreciate the risk is there which is fine.
But I am a bit confused on what I should say in my
representation now. If any help can be provided that would be
gravely received.
#Post#: 92763--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 4, 2025, 2:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir,
PCN *********
I refer to the above in which the following contravention is
alleged:
*******(temporary traffic order)
As a permit holder*, I am familiar with parking places being
suspended and the signage used e.g. parking suspended etc.
However, in this case the parking place had not been suspended
in this manner but instead the council had apparently passed (or
whatever the term is) a 'temporary traffic order' which meant
that parking was not permitted. Why this distinction, I don't
know. But what I do know is that nowhere in the photographic
evidence is there a copy of this order nor the restrictions it
imposes despite what appears to be the order situated on the
board but unreadable. To be honest, this omission does set alarm
bells ringing as regards the validity of the authority's claim
that a contravention occurred. I can see what's written and
displayed on the sheet of paper, but this is not an 'order',
it's simply something produced by a printer.
In any event, as a permit holder and as I believe that no
operational inconvenience was suffered I would ask the authority
to exercise discretion and cancel the PCN. If not then before I
hand over my hard-earned cash, I want to be certain that this
order exists and that it created the restriction which is
alleged at the time and place at which I was parked and
therefore should these representations be rejected I require a
copy of the order cited in the contravention grounds.
Some thoughts.
*- if you're not then this needs to be changed.
#Post#: 93001--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 01a - tempoary parking suspension - Tarling Road
DIR By: taffer87
Date: October 6, 2025, 5:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks I do have the permit and have sent the informal challenge
now.
For completenes, these are my own photos of the page that was
displayed in the board. So this is a public notice and not the
order as it has wording like "this order"?
HTML https://i.ibb.co/4ZdHZCzj/bd6a9fa0-2864-4e29-a6be-b7b718af600d.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/N6SM6f5L
HTML https://i.ibb.co/VpwkThPR/0e9e7cff-2324-4fe2-bc41-7d1ee4159514.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/Hph9qMk6
I can see it appears different (much shorter) from TTOs from
Newham in other similar situations on this forum
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