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#Post#: 92300--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 1, 2025, 5:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Councils invariably reject all informal challenges, because they
know that if they do, most people then just cough-up.
#Post#: 92355--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: October 1, 2025, 9:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Councils invariably reject all informal challenges, because
they know that if they do, most people then just cough-up.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks. They did write a very specific letter back indicating
that a "YY" attempt was not enough (below)
That said, what are the chances of winning considering the facts
of this case? - because if I know the approx % chance of winning
I can make a calculations if its worth pursuing? I just want to
be realistic.
**ECONOMY & INFRASTRUCTURE DIRECTORATE**
Council House, Manor Square,
Solihull, West Midlands B91 3QB
[www.solihull.gov.uk](
HTML http://www.solihull.gov.uk
)
**Date:** 18 September 2025
**Notice of Rejection of Informal Representation/Challenge**
Traffic Management Act 2004 S78
**PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE NUMBER:**
**DATE OF ISSUE:** 24/08/2025 at 17:09
**VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER:**
**LOCATION OF CONTRAVENTION:** Tudor Grange Leisure Centre
---
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided
not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were issued a PCN for not having a Pay & Display ticket that
was both valid and clearly displayed. Even if you have a Pay &
Display ticket, you must display it so that a Civil Enforcement
Officer (CEO) can see all its details.
Before issuing PCNs, our CEOs check for any parking items
displayed and record the details. The CEO saw an invalid Pay &
Display ticket. This can happen, for example, when people do not
input the correct registration when obtaining a ticket via the
machine.
I have taken a further look into the ticket that was displayed
when the PCN was issued and can confirm that you have inputted
"YY", however your vehicle registration is "YYxxxxx". It remains
the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that you input the
correct vehicle registration when obtaining a ticket.
Whilst I appreciate this was not intentional, this does not
serve as grounds to cancel the Charge. Tickets are not dispensed
until the user confirms the details inputted. In this instance
it would have been advisable to have checked that all the
information was correct before dispensing your ticket.
It is expected that drivers check their ticket prior to being
displayed to ensure that all details are correct. In doing this
you would have been alerted to the incorrect registration that
had been submitted.
As you have contravened the parking regulations, I am unable to
withdraw your PCN.
---
**You have these choices:**
* You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment
reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
* You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was
issued.
* You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner
form. The vehicle’s owner will automatically receive the form if
the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The
form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay
the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN,
please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to
Owner form arrives.
**How to pay:**
* **Online** at
[www.solihull.gov.uk](
HTML http://www.solihull.gov.uk
). Go to
‘Parking’ and click ‘Pay a Parking Fine’.
* **Telephone** 0121 704 8000
* **Automated Telephone Payments** 0300 4560502
* **By Cheque** – made payable to ‘Solihull Metropolitan Borough
Council’ sent to: Parking Services, Council House, Solihull, B91
3QB
Yours sincerely,
Parking Officer
#Post#: 92392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 1, 2025, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
IMO, procedural improprieties abound in the PCN.
(7) A penalty charge notice given under this regulation must
include the information set out in—
(a)Schedule 2, and
(b)regulation 3(1) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations.
Schedule 2
Particulars to be included in a penalty charge notice given
under regulation 9
Para. 2
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28
days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention
occurred,
(f)that if the penalty charge is not paid within the period of
28 days referred to in sub-paragraph (d), a notice to owner may
be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the
vehicle.
2(f) Is NOT there.
Regulation 3(1):
3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the
following information—
(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in
accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the
enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those
representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
(b)that if, before a notice to owner is served, representations
against the penalty charge are received at such address as may
be specified in the notice for the purpose those representations
will be considered by the enforcement authority;
(c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the
representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations
against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement
authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in
the notice to owner.
3(1)(c) is NOT there.
#Post#: 92434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: October 1, 2025, 3:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> IMO, procedural improprieties abound in the PCN.
>
> (7) A penalty charge notice given under this regulation must
include the information set out in—
>
> (a)Schedule 2, and
>
> (b)regulation 3(1) of the 2022 Appeals Regulations.
>
> Schedule 2
>
> Particulars to be included in a penalty charge notice given
under regulation 9
>
> Para. 2
> (d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of
28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged
contravention occurred,
>
>
> (f)that if the penalty charge is not paid within the period of
28 days referred to in sub-paragraph (d), a notice to owner may
be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the
vehicle.
>
> 2(f) Is NOT there.
>
> Regulation 3(1):
> 3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the
following information—
>
> (a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in
accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the
enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those
representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
>
> (b)that if, before a notice to owner is served,
representations against the penalty charge are received at such
address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those
representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
>
> (c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the
representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations
against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement
authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in
the notice to owner.
>
> 3(1)(c) is NOT there.
>
--- End Quote ---
Procedural audit of the Solihull Metropolitan Borough Council
PCN, assessed against the statutory requirements under:
- Regulation 9(7) of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (England) General Provisions Regulations 2022 (SI
2022/71)
- Schedule 2 of the same regulations
- Regulation 3(1) of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England)
Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/576)
---------------------------------------------------------
🚨 Procedural Audit of Solihull PCN (Regulation 9)
[table][tr][td]Requirement[/td]
[td]Legal Source[/td]
[td]Compliance[/td]
[td]Notes[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Payment deadline (28 days from contravention)[/td]
[td]Schedule 2, para 2(d)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]Clearly stated on front of PCN[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Notice to Owner may be served if unpaid[/td]
[td]Schedule 2, para 2(f)[/td]
[td]❌ Missing[/td]
[td]No mention of NtO escalation if unpaid[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Right to make representations after NtO[/td]
[td]Reg 3(1)(c)[/td]
[td]❌ Missing[/td]
[td]No info about formal reps post-NtO[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Right to make informal representations before NtO[/td]
[td]Reg 3(1)(b)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]Reverse side includes this right[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Right to appeal if reps rejected[/td]
[td]Reg 3(1)(a)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]Mentions adjudicator appeal process[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Address for informal representations[/td]
[td]Reg 3(1)(b)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]Solihull Connect address provided[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Contravention details (code, location, time)[/td]
[td]Schedule 2, para 2(a–c)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]Code 83, location, timestamp, vehicle info[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Discount period (14 days)[/td]
[td]Schedule 2, para 2(e)[/td]
[td]✅ Present[/td]
[td]£25 if paid within 14 days[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Clarity on date of service vs contravention[/td]
[td]Reg 9(2)[/td]
[td]⚠️ Ambiguous[/td]
[td]Uses “date of service” but doesn’t clarify it’s same as
contravention date[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
---------------------------------------------------------
🔍 Summary of Procedural Defects
- Missing Schedule 2(f): No mention that a Notice to Owner may
be served if unpaid.
- Missing Regulation 3(1)(c): No info about formal
representations after NtO.
- Ambiguity in service date phrasing: Could confuse recipients
about payment deadlines.
These are mandatory inclusions under the 2022 regulations. Their
absence constitutes procedural impropriety, which is valid
grounds for cancellation under the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
---------------------------------------------------------
🚨 Key Procedural Improprieties
1. Missing Notice to Owner Warning (Schedule 2, para 2(f))
--- Quote ---
> “...that if the penalty charge is not paid within the period
of 28 days referred to in sub-paragraph (d), a notice to owner
may be served…”
--- End Quote ---
- Why it matters: This informs the recipient of the next legal
step. Its absence is a breach of mandatory content and has been
upheld as a procedural impropriety in tribunal decisions.
2. Missing Post-NtO Representation Rights (Reg 3(1)(c))
--- Quote ---
> “...representations against the penalty charge must be made to
the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time
specified in the notice to owner.”
--- End Quote ---
- Why it matters: The PCN must explain that even if informal
reps are rejected, formal reps can be made after an NtO is
served. This is a statutory safeguard, and its omission is a
clear procedural defect.
---------------------------------------------------------
⚠️ Additional Observations
- Ambiguity in “date of service”: The PCN uses the phrase “date
on which this PCN was served,” which is technically correct for
a Regulation 9 PCN (served at the time of issue). However, it
could be clearer by explicitly stating that the date of
contravention and date of service are the same.
- No mention of approved device: While not strictly required
unless issued by camera, it’s good practice to state whether the
PCN was based on direct observation or an approved device.
---------------------------------------------------------
✅ What’s Done Correctly
- Clear contravention details
- Proper discount period
- Informal challenge instructions
- Address for representations
- Mention of adjudicator appeal rights
---------------------------------------------------------
🧠 Strategic Takeaway
Two solid procedural improprieties—both of which are mandatory
inclusions under the regulations. These alone are sufficient
grounds to challenge the PCN. If Solihull rejects your informal
representation, you’ll have a strong case before the Traffic
Penalty Tribunal.
... so you think high chance of TPT deciding in favour based on
these things - let alone the other representations? - maybe 90%
success rate?
#Post#: 92436--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 1, 2025, 3:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You are expert at obfuscation: simplicity is not your forte!
You are making formal reps to council officers, so I suggest
simple and concise.
This is not the Scopes trial or a submission to the Supreme
Court.
You keep asking about the likelihood of success expressed in
percentage terms, but the answer is that no-one can foresee what
could happen if the authority rejected your reps.
#Post#: 92441--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: October 1, 2025, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> You are expert at obfuscation: simplicity is not your forte!
>
> You are making formal reps to council officers, so I suggest
simple and concise.
> This is not the Scopes trial or a submission to the Supreme
Court.
>
> You keep asking about the likelihood of success expressed in
percentage terms, but the answer is that no-one can foresee what
could happen if the authority rejected your reps.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks. Didn't realise we are still with the council - thought
next stage was TPT. Ok Fine - we are at Stage 3.
You think I could send the reps via email to them and the
councillor - get it nipped in the bud quicker then wait for
NtO's? - I don't know if I will be at home address to receive
docs in the future.
🧭 Civil Enforcement Process: Regulation 9 PCN
Stage 1: PCN Issued (On-Street or Handed to Driver)
- Trigger: CEO observes a contravention and serves the PCN
directly.
- Deadline:
- Pay £25 within 14 days (discounted rate)
- Pay £50 within 28 days (full rate)
- OR make informal representations within 28 days
Stage 2: Informal Representations
- To Whom: The enforcement authority (e.g. Solihull Council)
- How: By post or online, using the address or portal listed on
the PCN
- Outcome:
- If accepted → PCN cancelled
- If rejected → You wait for the next formal stage
Stage 3: Notice to Owner (NtO)
- Trigger: If no payment is made within 28 days, or informal
reps are rejected
- Sent To: The registered keeper of the vehicle
- Purpose: Formal demand for payment and invitation to make
formal representations
Stage 4: Formal Representations
- To Whom: The enforcement authority, in response to the NtO
- Deadline: Within 28 days of receiving the NtO
- Grounds: Must be based on statutory grounds (e.g. procedural
impropriety, contravention did not occur, etc.)
- Outcome:
- If accepted → PCN cancelled
- If rejected → You receive a Notice of Rejection
Stage 5: Appeal to Adjudicator
- To Whom: The Traffic Penalty Tribunal (independent
adjudicator)
- Deadline: Within 28 days of the Notice of Rejection
- Process: Online or postal appeal; no fee required
- Outcome:
- If upheld → PCN cancelled
- If dismissed → You must pay the full charge
Stage 6: Charge Certificate
- Trigger: If no appeal is made or payment is not received
- Consequence: Charge increases by 50% (e.g. £50 → £75)
Stage 7: Order for Recovery & Bailiff Action
- Final Steps:
- Debt registered at Traffic Enforcement Centre
- Enforcement agents (bailiffs) may be instructed if unpaid
#Post#: 93015--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: October 6, 2025, 6:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Just curious - if the council can't be ars*d to fix things, do
they have the right to ask the public to drag their butts up and
down a hill to find another kiosk machine? Now't due for the
first 3hrs so assume you can't pay by phone for it.
Does faulty kiosk mean we are automatically off the hook?
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/9fvrPrzP/IMG-20251005-162329-DRO.jpg
#Post#: 93017--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 6, 2025, 6:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Does faulty kiosk mean we are automatically off the hook?
No.
#Post#: 93774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: October 11, 2025, 7:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi, nto arrived...
[img width=144.99998474121094
height=179.99998474121094]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/BPcXfygf/page1-2025-10-11-233814-1.jpg[/img]
HTML https://postimg.cc/BPcXfygf
[img width=141.98863220214844
height=179.99998474121094]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/sG9vC8cd/page2-2025-10-11-233855-2.jpg[/img]
HTML https://postimg.cc/sG9vC8cd
[img width=140.98483276367188
height=179.99998474121094]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/q6XzHYLd/page3-2025-10-11-233953-2.jpg[/img]
HTML https://postimg.cc/q6XzHYLd
[img width=123.99620056152344
height=179.99998474121094]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/y3XkC5Pq/page4-2025-10-11-234538-2.jpg[/img]
HTML https://postimg.cc/y3XkC5Pq
[img width=143.99620056152344
height=179.99998474121094]
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/GTJHnNQC/page5-2025-10-11-235042-2.jpg[/img]
HTML https://postimg.cc/GTJHnNQC
Link to Gallery
HTML https://postimg.cc/gallery/ZvtZtRR
Do I just send the previous response in and fingers x-ed?....
Subject: Formal Appeal Against PCN OHXXXXXXXX – Tudor Grange
Leisure Centre, 24/08/2025
To Whom It May Concern,
I am writing to ascertain assistance in regard to Penalty Charge
Notice OHXXXXXXXX, issued on 24/08/2025 at Tudor Grange Leisure
Centre Car Park. I respectfully request cancellation of the PCN
on the grounds of factual compliance, procedural unfairness, and
breach of statutory duties under the Equality Act 2010 and the
Traffic Management Act 2004.
1. Factual Background
A valid Pay & Display ticket was obtained at 16:03 on
24/08/2025, covering parking until 18:00.
The ticket was clearly displayed on the dashboard, as evidenced
in the attached photograph.
Due to visual impairment and poor machine interface design, the
vehicle registration mark (VRM) was entered incorrectly.
The Civil Enforcement Officer issued the PCN at 17:08, despite
the vehicle being covered for the full duration and parked in a
marked bay.
2. Compliance with the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO OH05)
The relevant clauses of the Solihull TRO OH05 state:
Clause 6(1):
“The Driver of a vehicle using a pay and display Parking Place
shall upon leaving the vehicle in the Parking Place, and on
payment of a charge, purchase a Pay and Display Ticket at the
level of charge and for the period required in accordance with
the instructions on the machine…”
Clause 6(2):
“The Driver shall display the Pay and Display Ticket issued in
respect of the vehicle in a conspicuous position on the
dashboard or fascia of the vehicle so that the ticket is clearly
visible from the outside of the vehicle.”
Clause 6(3):
“A Pay and Display Ticket shall be valid only for the vehicle
in respect of which it was issued and for the Parking Place in
which it was issued.”
I complied with all three clauses:
The correct charge was paid.
The ticket was displayed conspicuously.
The ticket was issued for the correct location and used by the
driver of the vehicle in question.
The TRO does not explicitly require perfect VRM entry for a
ticket to be valid. Enforcement based solely on machine
instructions—without clear incorporation into the TRO—is legally
unsound and ultra vires.
3. Equality Act 2010 – Reasonable Adjustments
Under Sections 20 and 29 of the Equality Act 2010, Solihull
Council has a duty to make reasonable adjustments for disabled
service users.
The machine interface was inaccessible when there are visually
impairment and challenging light conditions.
The failure to accommodate this barrier, and the refusal to
cancel the PCN despite being informed, constitutes indirect
discrimination.
The Council must consider the Public Sector Equality Duty
(Section 149) to eliminate discrimination and advance equality
of opportunity.
4. Statutory Guidance – Discretion and Fairness
Under the Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on Civil
Parking Enforcement (TMA 2004, Section 87):
Quote
“An authority has a discretionary power to cancel a PCN at any
point throughout the process. It can do this even when an
undoubted contravention has occurred if the authority deems it
to be appropriate in the circumstances of the case.”
Quote
“Under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty
to act fairly and proportionately and are encouraged to exercise
discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the
public interest. Failure to act in accordance with the general
principles of public law may lead to a claim for a decision to
be judicially reviewed.”
In this case, the contravention—if any—was minor, unintentional,
and caused by accessibility barriers. The vehicle was parked
lawfully, paid for, and caused no harm. The Council’s refusal to
exercise discretion is disproportionate and contrary to public
law principles.
Furthermore, the guidance states:
Quote
“Authorities should formulate (with advice from their legal
department) and then publish their policies on the exercise of
discretion. They should apply these policies flexibly and judge
each case on its merits. An enforcement authority should be
ready to depart from its policies if the particular
circumstances of the case warrant it.”
Quote
“The enforcement authority should have clear policies,
instructions and training available on how to exercise such
authority. These policies should form the basis for staff
training and should be published.”
To date, Solihull Council has not previously published any such
discretionary policy, nor provided evidence that staff are
trained to apply discretion fairly and flexibly. This omission
undermines transparency, accountability, and the Council’s legal
obligations under the guidance.
5. Remedy Sought
I respectfully request that the PCN be cancelled on the grounds
that:
The parking was paid for and covered the relevant time.
The error was minor and caused by accessibility barriers.
The TRO does not support enforcement for VRM entry errors.
The Council has a statutory duty to act fairly and make
reasonable adjustments.
The Council has failed to publish or apply a discretionary
policy as required under statutory guidance.
Should this appeal be rejected, I intend to escalate the matter
to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and, if necessary, raise a
formal complaint regarding breach of the Equality Act and
failure to act proportionately.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Yours faithfully,
[Name]
[Email Address]
[Vehicle Registration]
[PCN Reference]
#Post#: 97430--------------------------------------------------
Re: Council Kiosk User Interface Issues - do I have a hope in
hell?
DIR By: advicewelcome
Date: November 8, 2025, 7:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, well.... ;D
ECONOMY & INFRASTRUCTURE DIRECTORATE
Council House, Manor Square,
www.solihull.gov.uk
Date: 05 November 2025
NOTICE OF ACCEPTANCE
Of representations against Notice to Owner -Traffic Management
Act 2004 S78
Thank you for writing to us.
I am writing to inform you that the Council has decided to
cancel the PCN. However, I must advise you
that the decision has been taken to cancel the above stated PCN
on different grounds and not on the
grounds you raised in your grounds of appeal. Therefore, the
Notice has now been closed and there is no
outstanding balance.
Please be advised that this does not set a precedent for future
notices, as each case js treated on its own
merits. It is imperative that motorists always comply with
traffic regulations, and it is only in extreme
situations where consideration is given to mitigation.
The Authority reserves the right to judge which circumstances
are considered extreme, and decide
accordingly whether to accept or reject a representation
If you get another PCN in similar circumstances, we may not be
able to cancel it.
Yours sincerely
Parking Officer
*****************************************************
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