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#Post#: 8515--------------------------------------------------
12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings or
Signage in Sight.
DIR By: Londoner
Date: October 27, 2023, 5:36 am
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Hi all,
I received this PCN on Sunday for parking in a CPZ without a
valid resident's permit.
I live in the borough of Barnet where there are CPZs galore.
Never have I come across restricted road parking without some
sort of road markings (i.e painted bays) or signage within view
of the parking space.
Considering the above, and the fact that I have parked here in
the past without issue, I had no idea I was parking in a
restricted area.
Having searched around on GSV I found that the council's image
showing CPZ signage is around the corner. Is that really
sufficient?
Have I got an argument to make that there was no indication
whatsoever of parking restrictions within view of where I
parked?
Thanks in advance for your help!
GSV of "assumed" CPZ signage:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/aAvBUfHw73dtHDJR9
GSV of parking location:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wg3Sb6ydPhHXzEer8
HTML https://i.ibb.co/MVf7ghR/PXL-20231024-160050921-2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/Ltr10PC
HTML https://i.ibb.co/rk2qbYp/PXL-20231024-160220691.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/9nHBw64
HTML https://i.ibb.co/f97s97X/Media.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/f97s97X
HTML https://i.ibb.co/qdMCtL1/Media-2.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/qdMCtL1
HTML https://i.ibb.co/bB1hzQb/Media-1.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/bB1hzQb
HTML https://i.ibb.co/HB1MtRR/Media-3.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/HB1MtRR
HTML https://i.ibb.co/wBnWhwH/Media-6.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/wBnWhwH
HTML https://i.ibb.co/qDjHvS4/Media-5.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/qDjHvS4
HTML https://i.ibb.co/phBrxGG/Media-4.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/phBrxGG
#Post#: 8516--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 27, 2023, 6:29 am
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Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the
invention of the devil.
They specifically must have entry signs like the one the CEo
pics show and cannot have any of the normal road markings such
as yellow lines.
I would normally expect repeater signs in larger zones but not
mandatory.
It comes down to whether or not an adjudicator can be persuaded
that the sign (there seems only one) complies with the regs that
require signs to adequately convey the restriction... I'm 50/50
on that one
See what others have to say, they may know summat I don't for
this area
#Post#: 8519--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 27, 2023, 7:37 am
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Google Street View latest is 2015, which is, I suspect, too old
to show the signs. So if you want to fight this one, you'll need
to go and take your own photos. Much depends on where the entry
sign is located, but from the look of the location, I suspect
the whole of this development, called Britannia Village, is an
RPZ, or has some pretty tight parking restrictions. I say this
because the DLR station West Silvertown is quite close.
#Post#: 8528--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: Londoner
Date: October 27, 2023, 9:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Google Street View latest is 2015, which is, I suspect, too
old to show the signs. So if you want to fight this one, you'll
need to go and take your own photos. Much depends on where the
entry sign is located, but from the look of the location, I
suspect the whole of this development, called Britannia Village,
is an RPZ, or has some pretty tight parking restrictions. I say
this because the DLR station West Silvertown is quite close.
>
--- End Quote ---
I did take my own photos of where I parked, showing there were
no road signs within view of the car, if that helps?
#Post#: 8572--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: October 28, 2023, 6:48 am
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These signs occur in all of the Newham Resident Parking Zones.
They use them when there is only one entrance/exit into a street
or set of streets. EG a cul-de-sac. The signs will be placed at
the entrance and it's not possible to access such streets
without passing the signs. There won't be any repeater signs.
The restricted hours are on the signs and are the same as the
parent zone, in this case Royal Docks West (RDW).
#Post#: 8652--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 29, 2023, 9:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DancingDad link ---
>
> Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the
invention of the devil.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not quite, it's a permit parking area or PPA, which is not the
same as an RPZ.
[member=702]Londoner[/member] please give us the PCN number and
number plate.
#Post#: 8658--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: Londoner
Date: October 29, 2023, 10:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=DancingDad link=topic=804.msg8516#msg8516
date=1698406175]
> Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the
invention of the devil.
>
--- End Quote ---
Not quite, it's a permit parking area or PPA, which is not the
same as an RPZ.
[member=702]Londoner[/member] please give us the PCN number and
number plate.
[/quote]
PN 3 7 0 2 2 7 3 4
Bravo.Kilo.One.Seven.Peter.Hotel.Universe
#Post#: 8686--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 29, 2023, 4:06 pm
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These are the council photos:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/A0WO2oY.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/UkM4zTP.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/UuBYpD5.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/uNh06CJ.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/f1YWNsl.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ldY0AEH.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1Fu7qJI.jpg
I've requested the traffic order, in the meantime are you in a
position to go back and check the signage? It would be helpful
to know if there are any repeater signs within the zone. We have
won cases in the past where a zone has a number of streets and
no repeaters, though I have to say this one isn't very big.
#Post#: 8689--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: Londoner
Date: October 29, 2023, 4:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
>
> I've requested the traffic order, in the meantime are you in a
position to go back and check the signage? It would be helpful
to know if there are any repeater signs within the zone. We have
won cases in the past where a zone has a number of streets and
no repeaters, though I have to say this one isn't very big.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am confident there were no repeater signs as I checked upon
leaving. The signs that are in the council photos I must have
missed as they were facing the other way when I drove past them
(although it is clear to see from GSV the location they are in).
It would be half hour drive in each direction for me to return
to that location, which I'd rather avoid doing.
#Post#: 8698--------------------------------------------------
Re: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings
or Signage in Sight.
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 29, 2023, 5:10 pm
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These are the permit parking area cases I have to hand:
Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council
(KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1CA19mTqe16e61jpg9iEhG7QXBxfiBpSW
Shetal Patel v London Borough of Harrow (2220650316, 27 October
2022)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1xZjjLoGbTaLsTaDBgOacE5uTukj4_c3x
Sabera Lee v London Borough of Harrow (2220689923, 04 November
2022)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gWhzGqcAd9WIqwDkOROD2cegF_0lGFYE
Ameeta Kumar v London Borough of Harrow (2220814027, 17 December
2022)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1z6ReY9ibyKmyVIj1h8PTWK3Jd8engSoV
John Fellows v London Borough of Harrow (2230367923, 18
September 2023)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=14CwDmqKYLw-b-fvuPhqxTuxdsnJ3auo9
In essence, the argument to be made is that a single sign at the
entrance to the zone is inadequate, and the council should have
provided repeaters. Try drafting a representation based on those
decisions and post it on here and we'll tidy it up for you.
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