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#Post#: 89552--------------------------------------------------
Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: motorn1by2
Date: September 11, 2025, 2:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have a company car where the car reg got cloned in late July.
I realised this mid August when the PCNs, congestion charges and
parking fines started getting sent to my accountant (my trading
address). I called the Met police the same day (11th August),
and got a call reference number only - the office on the phone
told me that car cloning was technically not a crime and a crime
reference number could not be issued. When I asked how I could
challenge the PCNs I had received, I was advised to use the call
reference number provided.
The first PCN I got was from Lambeth council, for a 52m -
Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of
vehicles, on 29th July. The PCN was dated 4th August. I was with
my family, driving to Wales for a holiday, on the date of the
contravention, nowhere near where the contravention occurred in
London. The cloned vehicle is the exact same make, model and
colour as mine.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/W8wqSId.png
I challenged the PCN, within the time frame (either the 12th or
13th of August). I provided as evidence the call reference
number with the Met, my airbnb receipt with dates showing I was
in Wales on the said day, and credit card receipts showing
myself at a rest stop outside Bristol and another one at a shop
in Mumbles, Wales, on the day. I have no further evidence, as I
wasn't really taking any pictures of my car on our holiday!
Lambeth Council wrote to me on the 9th of September (letter
received yesterday) saying that I have not provided sufficient
evidence.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7JtqXE6.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/eChZBMj.png
They are insisting on a crime reference number. I have sent an
email to the email address they advise in their letter earlier
today, but knowing the Met, I am unlikely to get a positive
response within 14 days, if ever. I am of course able and
willing to provide them photos of my vehicle - however on this
point, I added some stickers to my bumper on the advice of the
police - this would however have been after the date of the
contravention. Not sure if I need to advise the council of this?
I have looked at other threads of similar cases and have noted
that the Met are in error and should in fact give me a crime
reference number, but I am a regular civilian and have no idea
how I am to compel the police to admit a crime has happened and
a crime reference should be issued.
I will update here if the Met police do surprise me and oblige
with a Crime Reference Number, but assuming the worst and they
do not, what are my options? How do I represent my case with the
E&TA (I assume that is the logical next step?)
Tangentially, I have also spoken to the DVLA, and my new V5C
logbook arrived to my accountants office yesterday, should be
with me tomorrow.
Thanks and regards,
motorn1by2
#Post#: 89556--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: mickR
Date: September 11, 2025, 2:56 pm
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I suggest get back onto the police and if they don't play ball
complain to the CC.
you say d la issued a new V5, i assume a new VRM?
#Post#: 89558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: motorn1by2
Date: September 11, 2025, 3:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks mickR
> I suggest get back onto the police and if they don't play ball
complain to the CC.
I have emailed them, but in no way confident of any response
within the 14 day timeframe. Not sure who you mean by the CC,
sorry. Working assumption is I will not have anything from the
Met to hand by the deadline.
> you say d la issued a new V5, i assume a new VRM?
I assume so? I haven't seen it yet, accountant popped it in the
post this morning.
#Post#: 89561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: mickR
Date: September 11, 2025, 3:08 pm
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Chief Constable
#Post#: 89563--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: mickR
Date: September 11, 2025, 3:15 pm
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you can quote from this, scroll to "if you think your vehicle
has been cloned" last sentence
HTML https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/automatic-number-plate-recognition-anpr/
HTML https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/automatic-number-plate-recognition-anpr/
#Post#: 89575--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: Dave Green
Date: September 11, 2025, 5:52 pm
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--- Quote from: motorn1by2 link ---
>
> the office on the phone told me that car cloning was
technically not a crime and a crime reference number could not
be issued.
--- End Quote ---
Not a crime?
I would have thought that Section 2 of the Fraud Act covers it
perfectly:
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2
--- Quote ---
> 2 Fraud by false representation
> (1) A person is in breach of this section if he—
>
> (a) dishonestly makes a false representation, and
>
> (b) intends, by making the representation—
>
> (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
>
> (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk
of loss.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 89591--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 12, 2025, 4:09 am
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To whom is the PCN addressed and who is the RK?
#Post#: 89593--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: motorn1by2
Date: September 12, 2025, 4:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
original PCN is addressed to the company. The second document is
addressed to me, as the Director of the company that is the RK.
#Post#: 89604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 12, 2025, 4:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
original PCN is addressed to the company. The second document is
addressed to me, as the Director of the company that is the RK.
IMO, not possible procedurally unless you hire the vehicle under
a 'hiring agreement' and your company is a 'vehicle-hire' firm.
The long version:
(2)Transport for London or, as the case may be, the relevant
borough council may serve a penalty charge notice—
(a)in relation to a penalty charge payable by virtue of
subsection (5) below, on the person appearing to them to be the
owner of the vehicle
2)Subject to paragraph 1(8) of Schedule 1 to this Act, the owner
of a vehicle for the purposes of this Act, shall be taken to be
the person by whom the vehicle is kept.
(3)Subject to the said paragraph 1(8), in determining, for the
purposes of this Act, who was the owner of a vehicle at any
time, it shall be presumed that the owner was the person in
whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the
Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22).
.....
1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice
has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road
traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred
to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds
mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make
representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.
(d)that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—
(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from
that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and
(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability
acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge
notice issued in respect of the vehicle during the currency of
the hiring agreement
9)In this paragraph, “vehicle hiring agreement” and
“vehicle-hire firm” have the same meanings as in section 66 of
the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (Hired vehicles).
......
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/66
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/contents/made
#Post#: 89692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Car reg got cloned, Met won't issue crime reference number,
Lambeth Council won't cancel PCN without one
DIR By: motorn1by2
Date: September 12, 2025, 11:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> original PCN is addressed to the company. The second document
is addressed to me, as the Director of the company that is the
RK.
>
> IMO, not possible procedurally unless you hire the vehicle
under a 'hiring agreement' and your company is a 'vehicle-hire'
firm.
>
> The long version:
>
>
> (2)Transport for London or, as the case may be, the relevant
borough council may serve a penalty charge notice—
>
> (a)in relation to a penalty charge payable by virtue of
subsection (5) below, on the person appearing to them to be the
owner of the vehicle
>
> 2)Subject to paragraph 1(8) of Schedule 1 to this Act, the
owner of a vehicle for the purposes of this Act, shall be taken
to be the person by whom the vehicle is kept.
>
> (3)Subject to the said paragraph 1(8), in determining, for the
purposes of this Act, who was the owner of a vehicle at any
time, it shall be presumed that the owner was the person in
whose name the vehicle was at that time registered under the
Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22).
>
> .....
> 1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge
notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road
traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred
to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds
mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make
representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.
>
> (d)that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and—
>
> (i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from
that firm under a vehicle hiring agreement; and
>
> (ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability
acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge
notice issued in respect of the vehicle during the currency of
the hiring agreement
>
> 9)In this paragraph, “vehicle hiring agreement” and
“vehicle-hire firm” have the same meanings as in section 66 of
the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (Hired vehicles).
> ......
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/66
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/contents/made
>
--- End Quote ---
Not sure what you mean. I have got numerous (legitimate) PCNs on
vehicles owned by my company over the years. No, the company is
not a vehicle-hire company
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