DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 8450--------------------------------------------------
Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: syd16
Date: October 26, 2023, 7:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I received the attached PCN from Redbridge Council for entering
and stopping at a yellow junction box. I was thinking to appeal
on the basis that:
- The yellow junction box is very long (at least 4 car lengths)
so it is difficult as a driver to ascertain if the space
immediately after the junction box would be enough for my car to
fit in
- My car was only partially on the junction box and didn't
exactly block any traffic going into or out of the junction for
the few seconds I was in there
- Although not shown in the video evidence provided, you can see
that my car wasn't stationary the whole time (blinking brake
lights) and I recall I was slightly crawling until the car in
front moved and I was fully out of the junction box
Do you think these are strong enough ground for appeal? Any
other thoughts or suggestions welcome.
Link to the council video here:
HTML https://youtube.com/shorts/07C1RtQuclI
HTML https://youtube.com/shorts/07C1RtQuclI
PCN attached below:
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 8486--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I can see you were trying very hard not to come to a complete
stop. The video resolution isn't quite good enough on my phone
to say for sure if you did it didn't but it's definitely worth
arguing.
A couple of other possible angles for your
representation/appeal.
1) the location on the PCN is not specific enough in my opinion.
Ley Street is very long with more than one box junction along
it.
2) I've had a look on Google maps and the box junction is marked
out at the junction of Ley Street and some sort of depot. It
looks quite possible that it's some sort of private premises, in
which case it isn't a legitimate box junction and cannot be
enforced. Do you (or any other forumites) know what this place
is?
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/3tCPeDtUox3DPHM56
#Post#: 8490--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The sign says it is "Ley Street Depot" and seems to be a council
depot with the entrance off Ley Street. So if their address is
Ley Street, the YBJ is unlawful, not being at the junction of
two or more roads. There is no street name on the entrance. The
security barrier is obviously set back to avoid queuing vehicles
backing-up into Ley Street.
#Post#: 8510--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: October 27, 2023, 2:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The box is not placed legally, it must be at the junction of 2
or more roads and a road is defined as having unfettered access
to the public which the depot does not
#Post#: 8595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: syd16
Date: October 28, 2023, 4:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That’s right this is a council depot - Redbridge Transport. You
can drive in and there’s a car park immediately on the right
hand side before the barriers which I think is for employees but
there is no road name, it has Ley Street as it’s address. I’ll
argue the YBJ is unlawful. Thanks guys
#Post#: 8608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 28, 2023, 6:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: syd16 link ---
>
> That’s right this is a council depot - Redbridge Transport.
You can drive in and there’s a car park immediately on the right
hand side before the barriers which I think is for employees but
there is no road name, it has Ley Street as it’s address. I’ll
argue the YBJ is unlawful. Thanks guys
>
--- End Quote ---
Don't expect them to roll over like spaniels and cancel the PCN;
they want your money ! Most cases like this where you're arguing
over the legality of something, end up at the adjudicator,
(London Tribunals).
#Post#: 8619--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: syd16
Date: October 29, 2023, 3:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes understood. Do you think they have any grounds to contest my
appeal? What would you do in my case?
According to the legislation:
“box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the
marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads
So it boils down to whether the turning into the depot can be
classified as a separate road. I don’t see any mention in the
rules that the road needs to be publicly accessible - I don’t
recall any signs to say access is unauthorised for the public. I
remember in the past anyone could drive in to the depot to
collect recycle bins although that service is now stopped.
#Post#: 8626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: October 29, 2023, 7:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
s142 of the road traffic act 1984
road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any
other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges
over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland)
Act 1984;
Try something like this
I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx on the basis
that
The contravention did not occur
schedule 9:7:6 of the TSRGD 2016 defines a box junction as
For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area
of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which
is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction),
the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at
its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to
the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station;
The RTRA 1984 at s192 describes a road as
F13 road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any
other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges
over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland)
Act 1984;
Whilst lay st is a road within the definition the entrance to
the Council depot is not as the public do not have access by
right
It follows that the box junction markings are laid outwith the
parameters set by law and no penalty can be enforced
#Post#: 8668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 29, 2023, 1:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Agree with those draft reps. Having checked google street view
again and spotted red signs at the entrance stating "No access
for unauthorised persons", I'd be tempted to embellish a little
as follows (have also added an optional additional paragraph).
I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx on the basis
that
The contravention did not occur
Schedule 9:7:6 of the TSRGD 2016 defines a box junction as
follows:
"For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area
of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which
is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction),
the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at
its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to
the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station."
The RTRA 1984 at s192 describes a road as:
F13 road”—
(a)in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any
other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges
over which a road passes, and
(b)in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland)
Act 1984;
Whilst Ley Street is a road within the definition, the placement
of the box junction markings on Ley Street is at the driveway
entry to a Council depot, a place the public do not have access
by right. Indeed, there are signs placed at the entrance to the
depot explicitly saying "No access for unauthorised persons".
It follows that the box junction markings are laid outwith the
parameters set by law and no penalty can be enforced.
Further to this point, I note the PCN issued by the authority
states the location of the alleged offence as Ley Street (only).
Given Ley Street is a long road which has more than one box
junction marked along it, the PCN must be more specific as to
which box junction it is referring to by distinguishing which
road it is a junction with (it is a strict requirement of the
relevant legislation that a PCN must state the grounds on which
the authority believe a penalty is payable and leaving the
location ambiguous is not consistent with this requirement). The
fact the box junction marking is not actually placed at a
junction with a second road presumably prevents the authority
from doing this at this location.
#Post#: 8680--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Ley Street
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: October 29, 2023, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
whilst i do not think an adjudicator would find on vague
location ( there are only two boxes on Ley st and the are vastly
different in design, it is not a bad idea to give a reason for
the council to focus and fail to consider the major point
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 3
DIR Next Page