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#Post#: 8489--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:29 pm
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It seems you have also misunderstood the regulations.
Yes, the Order can state that the toll fee is payable in
addition to a penalty charge. However, the two are separate. As
Caroline Sheppard said, there are no powers in Regulation 7
(PCNs) to collect the toll fee as well as the penalty charge,
they are separate debts. So asking for more than the penalty
charge on the PCN is a procedural impropriety. I note that
neither the London ULEZ, or the Birmingham schemes insist the
toll fee be paid in addition to the penalty charge. So why don't
councils add on any unpaid parking charges to their PCNs ?
Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree until an adjudication
has taken place.
#Post#: 8491--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
> ..... I note that neither the London ULEZ, or the Birmingham
schemes insist the toll fee be paid in addition to the penalty
charge. So why don't councils add on any unpaid parking charges
to their PCNs ?
>
> Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree until an adjudication
has taken place.
>
--- End Quote ---
ULEZ legislation does not come from the Road Users REgs, it is
under section 295 and Schedule 23 of the Greater London
Authority Act 1999, as amended
It would seem that Birmingham didn't avail themselves of the
option allowed in Reg 4.
As for PCNs, there isn't the option within TMA 2004 or the regs
pertaining to it
#Post#: 8493--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: slapdash
Date: October 26, 2023, 3:04 pm
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--- Quote ---
> 11. (1) A penalty charge will be payable, in addition to the
charge imposed under article
> 7, for each charging day as respects which—
> (a) a relevant vehicle has been used on a designated road in
circumstances in which a
> charge is imposed by article 7; and
> (b) that charge has not been paid in full in the manner in
which and within the time by
> which it is required to be paid by article 9.
--- End Quote ---
Is stated in the charging order. Whether that makes any
difference I don't know.
Bath CAZ also demands the fee in addition.
#Post#: 8526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: victor volt
Date: October 27, 2023, 8:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DancingDad link ---
>
> To quote Ms Sheppard
> "There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
> addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
> allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
> future use."
>
> To me the second part is the key part, they were adding the
crossing charge even though he had paid it (late).
--- End Quote ---
I read that as two separate points, and the first part stands on
its own.
--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> [quote]11. (1) A penalty charge will be payable, in addition
to the charge imposed under article
> 7, for each charging day as respects which—
> (a) a relevant vehicle has been used on a designated road in
circumstances in which a
> charge is imposed by article 7; and
> (b) that charge has not been paid in full in the manner in
which and within the time by
> which it is required to be paid by article 9.
--- End Quote ---
Is stated in the charging order. Whether that makes any
difference I don't know.
[/quote]
I guess that would need to be tested at a tribunal. I'll keep
you posted.
#Post#: 8527--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 27, 2023, 8:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. The lawfulness of a PCN also demanding the toll fee will
only be determined at an adjudication. Birmingham PCNs have the
same penalty charge as all the others, but they have decided
payment of the PCN discharges any requirement to pay the toll
fee.
#Post#: 8536--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: slapdash
Date: October 27, 2023, 11:14 am
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The regulations:-
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/made
--- Quote ---
> (4) A charging scheme is to specify whether a penalty charge
referred to in paragraph (1) or (2) is payable in addition to
the road user charge or instead of such charge.
--- End Quote ---
My bold.
Were this not the case I could take a non compliant lorry, get a
£120 penalty and pay it at £60 rather than paying the £100 caz
charge.
So, for me anyway, the CAZ fee can be demanded with the penalty
as set out in the charging order.
--- Quote ---
> Now therefore the Council, in exercise of the powers conferred
on it by Part III and Schedule
> 12 of the Transport Act 2000, Parts 2 and 6 of The Road User
Charging Schemes (Penalty
> Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations
2013, and all other powers
> enabling it in that behalf, hereby makes the following Order
--- End Quote ---
Unless it is a different piece of legislation that enables
penalty charges.
Edit: just realised the same observation had already been made.
#Post#: 8540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 27, 2023, 12:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
No, sorry, you're wrong. The toll fee remains payable at
whatever amount it is set at, but regulation 7 defines the
content of the PCN. The penalty charge is nothing to do with the
toll fee, being payable if the fee (called "licence in the
Order), has not been paid, or has been paid late. It is a
penalty, pure and simple.
The toll fee is a separate debt, and is not recoverable via the
PCN. There is, of course, nothing to stop the council from
pointing out that the toll fee must be paid when serving a PCN,
but it is not permitted on the PCN. If the council have
difficulty collecting the fee there is an established legal
process for its recovery.
So a non-compliant lorry would still be liable for the £100;
payment of the PCN does not discharge that debt.
#Post#: 8560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: slapdash
Date: October 27, 2023, 11:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Your view is that any PCN issued which includes the underlying
charge is unlawful. Presumably all Bristol CAZ charges (and Dart
and Bath too).
If they want the charge paying they should ask for it seperately
and provide a means to pay it - this doesn't appear to exist
since the payment service only allows a few days either side.
That would be an odd state of affairs - but entirely plausible.
If the authority accepted representations they could then,
presumably, issue a fresh PCN in the sum of the penalty only
under regulation 9 (2).
#Post#: 8563--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 28, 2023, 3:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the drafters of the regulations cocked it up.
If a council has a choice in the RUC regulations between the PCN
penalty on its own subsuming the toll fee, and the fee remaining
payable when a PCN is issued, one would think Regulation 7 would
contain a clause or clauses that say how a council collects an
unpaid toll fee. From what I see, Reg 7 is a straight
cut-and-paste from other regulations, probably the London ones.
There the toll fee is cancelled if the PCN is paid. For the
London LEZ which affects commercial vehicles, the PCN penalties
are very large so no money is lost. With these RUC 2013-based
schemes there is only a single PCN penalty to cover the much
larger charge for lorries, and the fee for others, so, as you
have said, a lorry operator could just pay the PCN at the
discounted rate, and pay less than the £100 fee for Bristol.
The Birmingham fee for lorries is half that of Bristol at £50.
It is a real dog's breakfast IMHO.
#Post#: 8578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 28, 2023, 9:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Being fixated on Reg 7 doesn't make sense when all that says is
the mandatory content.
Especially when Reg 4 specifically allows the authority to claim
the charge as well as the penalty if they choose.
The mandatory content is the bits that must be on a PCN.
Unless specified it does not prohibit other bits being added, if
it did you could probably damn each and every parking PCN as
there will be bits that are not in the regs.
Added charges are a no no in most cases but these are
sanctioned, they cannot be unlawful.
They were deemed to be in Moran as they were levied despite him
having paid them and didn't give him the option to pay the
penalty alone.
Simply put, you can demand the charge but not if it has been
paid.
It does make you wonder on what would happen should a lorry
owner pay the penalty bun not the charge.
Likely Bristol would allocate the £60 to the charges, regard the
penalty as unpaid and issue a CC for the 150% plus the
outstanding charge.
I can see that being a right dog's breakfast
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