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#Post#: 8150--------------------------------------------------
Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air zone, A4
Hotwell Road
DIR By: victor volt
Date: October 23, 2023, 4:58 am
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Visiting Bristol, didn't realise I had gone into the CAZ and got
this a month later which came as a bit of a surprise!
I've had a search and it looks like the 0870 number for payment
may be a failing, and also charging the fee plus the penalty
(does the Dart Crossing adjudication apply here?).
Any thoughts would be welcome.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 8212--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 23, 2023, 3:33 pm
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--- Quote from: victor volt link ---
>
> I've had a search and it looks like the 0870 number for
payment may be a failing, and also charging the fee plus the
penalty (does the Dart Crossing adjudication apply here?).
>
--- End Quote ---
If you're talking about [i]Luke Moran v Secretary of State for
Transport[/i] (IA01249-1803, 13 June 2018)
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=196wgUERzYDuZjwM9IEFYQwN0jD_jlcDD,<br
/>that depends on whether you paid the daily fee before the PCN
was issued.
If the fee was not paid you can still challenge based on the
other issues you have identified. It's always best to post a
draft challenge on here first.
#Post#: 8244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 23, 2023, 6:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Heree is the mandatory content of a PCN under the The Road User
Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)
(England) Regulations 2013
(there is a later amendment of 2014, but no in the section I am
posting here)
--- Quote ---
> Penalty charge notice
> 7.—(1) Where a road user charge with respect to a motor
vehicle under a charging scheme has not been paid by the time by
which it is required by the charging scheme to be paid and, in
those circumstances, the charging scheme provides for the
payment of a penalty charge, the charging authority may serve a
notice (a “penalty charge notice”).
>
> (2) A penalty charge notice must be served on the registered
keeper of the motor vehicle unless, in accordance with
regulation 6, the penalty charge to which it relates is payable
by another person, in which case the penalty charge notice must
be served on that other person.
>
> (3) A penalty charge notice must state—
>
> (a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which it
is posted or sent by electronic transmission;
>
> (b)the name of the charging authority;
>
> (c)the registration mark of the motor vehicle to which it
relates;
>
> (d)the date and time at which the charging authority claims
that the motor vehicle was used or kept on the designated road
in circumstances in which, by virtue of a charging scheme, a
road user charge was payable in respect of the motor vehicle;
>
> (e)the grounds on which the charging authority believes that
the penalty charge is payable with respect to the motor vehicle;
>
> (f)the amount of penalty charge that is payable if the penalty
charge is paid in full—
> (i)within 14 days of the day on which the penalty charge
notice is served;
> (ii)after the expiry of such 14 day period but within 28 days
of the day on which the penalty charge notice is
> served;
> (iii)after the service of a charge certificate;
>
> (g)the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid and the
address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent;
>
> (h)that the recipient of the penalty charge notice is entitled
to make representations to the charging authority against the
imposition of the penalty charge on any of the grounds specified
in regulation 8(3);
> (i)the address (including if appropriate any email address or
fax telephone number, as well as the postal
> address) to which such representations must be sent and the
form in which they must be made;
> (j)that the charging authority may disregard any such
representations received by it more than 28 days after the
> penalty charge notice was served; and
> (k)in general terms, the form and manner in which an appeal to
an adjudicator may be made.
--- End Quote ---
I don't see anywhere on the pages of the PCN that has been
posted, the amount as per 2 (f)(iii), the amount after a Charge
Certificate is served.
It also seems inlawful to me to add in the amount of the road
user charge to the penalty charge, because the charge is not
collectable within the penalty charge amount. As put succinctly
by Caroline Sheppard in the Luke MOran case:-
" There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in addition to the penalty charge."
and
"It is all very well to set out the amounts of the penalty
charge, but the impact and effect of the
PCN is to demand an amount that is in excess of the penalty
charge, and it implies that
payment of £38 or £73 is the only amount that will be accepted."
So adding on the road user charge to the penalty charge is a
procedural impropriety.
There is also, of course, the 0870 phone number issue.
So, in summary, there are three things that are procedural
improprieties on the PCN
1. Failure to show the amount after a CC is served
2. Asking for more than the penalty charge defined in Regulation
7
3. Using an o870 number meaning the council receive more money
than allowed by law
#Post#: 8438--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: victor volt
Date: October 26, 2023, 4:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, how about this:
I am challenging this PCN due to multiple procedural
improprieties on the part of the charging authority:
1 The PCN references the Bristol City Council Clean Air Zone
Charging Order 2022, legislation that does not exist. The PCN
should in fact refer to the Bristol Clean Air Zone Charging
Order 2022
2 The PCN is seeking to claim the CAZ charge in addition to a
penalty. There is no provision for this in The Road User
Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)
(England) Regulations 2013 which means that the PCN amount is
greater than the amount that may legitimately be claimed. This
was clarified by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal Chief Adjudicator
in Mr Luke Moran - v - Secretary of State for Transport, case
number IA01249-1803, on 13 June 2018 when she stated "There is
no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the road user
charge to be paid in addition to the penalty charge"
3 The Road User Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication
and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013 7(3)(f) requires
that a PCN states the amount of penalty charge that is payable
if the penalty charge is paid in full:
(i)within 14 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice
is served;
(ii)after the expiry of such 14 day period but within 28 days of
the day on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(iii)after the service of a charge certificate
Only (i) and (ii) are included in the PCN, the amount for (iii)
has been omitted therefore the PCN is invalid
4 The PCN includes an 0870 premium rate telephone number for
payment. In Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council, case
number DJ00037-2209, on 10 November 2022) the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal Adjudicator found that this amounts to a demand that
exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case making
the PCN invalid.
#Post#: 8454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 26, 2023, 8:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Delete Item 3. I have now found the Charge Certificate increase,
(50%), and amount. It is in the box at the top of page 3.
The rest is good to go.
#Post#: 8465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 26, 2023, 9:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm
The road user charging scheme allows the charge to be levied as
well as the penalty.
Though whether Bristol charging scheme specifies I need to check
on.
The Road User Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication
and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013
4(4) A charging scheme is to specify whether a penalty charge
referred to in paragraph (1) or (2) is payable in addition to
the road user charge or instead of such charge.
The Luke Moran case turned not on that the charge was levied but
that it had been paid and Dart had not allocated it to the PCN
(kept it "on account")
Edit
Bristol charging order says this:-
"Penalty charge for non-payment of charge
11. (1) A penalty charge will be payable, in addition to the
charge imposed under article
7, for each charging day as respects which....
#Post#: 8476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 26, 2023, 12:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Indeed it does say that, but the PCN is defined in Regulation 7
and this does not permit the toll charge to be added to it. If
you read the DART case, you'll find that Caroline Sheppard
points this out. If they want to collect the toll charge, they
can go to the small claims court. Obviously Birmingham read the
regulations correctly.
#Post#: 8477--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 26, 2023, 1:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
To quote Ms Sheppard
"There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
future use."
To me the second part is the key part, they were adding the
crossing charge even though he had paid it (late).
Reg 7 says what must be on the PCN, it does not say what cannot
be on it.
The PCN says that the penalty is £120 discounted to £60 within
the appropriate period.
It says that the penalty plus the CAZ charge must be paid
Reg 4(4) allows the authority to claim the charge if it desires
Bristol CAZ charging order so specifies.
I honestly cannot see owt wrong with respect to the added charge
or how it is shown.
Challenge using it by all means, Bristol may flub the reply.
But I would expect an adjudicator to reject it.
TBH I would expect an adjudicator to reject a similar challenge
on Dart if the crossing charge was still outstanding
#Post#: 8481--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So this sentence only applies if the toll fee is paid then ?
"There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
addition to the penalty charge."
And also
"
Regulations 7(3)(g) and (f) require the penalty charge notice to
state:
(f) the amount of penalty charge that is payable if the penalty
charge is paid in full—
(i) within 14 days of the day on which the penalty charge notice
is served;
(ii) after the expiry of such 14 day period but within 28 days
of the day on which the penalty charge notice is
served;
(iii) after the service of a charge certificate;
(g) the manner in which the penalty charge must be paid and the
address to which payment of the penalty charge
must be sent.
The clear intention is to set out clearly the amount of the
penalty charge to be paid, and give
equally clear instructions as to how to pay the relevant amount.
While the PCN in this case dealt with the amounts of the
penalty charge, according to when
they would be paid, it also stipulated that:
“In addition to the penalty charge you must also pay the
applicable road user charge of £3.”
And the PCN further required Mr Moran to pay £38 or £73 (the
relevant penalty charge with
£3 added), without an option to pay just the penalty charge.
There is no power in Regulation 7 for the PCN to require the
road user charge to be paid in
addition to the penalty charge. Nor is there a power for the
charging authority to refuse to
allocate a payment made for a crossing to that crossing, and
hold it, possibly indefinitely, for
future use.
It is not in dispute that Mr Moran had paid the £3 crossing
charge, as evidenced by his receipt
dated 14 January 2018 for the £3 payment, and accepted by Dart
Charge.
It is all very well to set out the amounts of the penalty
charge, but the impact and effect of the
PCN is to demand an amount that is in excess of the penalty
charge, and it implies that
payment of £38 or £73 is the only amount that will be accepted.
Of course until somebody tests the argument at adjudication we
are in the dark, but for me, the intent of the regulations is
clear. The PCN is for collecting the PCN penalty not any unpaid
toll fee. By adding it in the authority is requesting more than
the PCN penalty, which is unlawful.
#Post#: 8485--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bristol CAZ - code 17J using a vehicle within clean air
zone, A4 Hotwell Road
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 26, 2023, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If the Charging Regulations and the Bristol Order did not
explicitly allow the charge to be required, I would agree
wholeheartedly.
If not sanctioned it would be no different to adding a credit
card surcharge which we all know was damned years ago as
exceeding the penalty due.
But it is sanctioned, the error with Moran is that Dart required
him to pay it again when he had already paid.
That is similar to a case my mate had... parked unlawfully in
Walsal, copped a PCN, paid at discount.
Then Walsall sent him an NTO..... that was clear payment
demanded exceeded what was due and they were challenged on it.
Had no option but to accept and refund the PCN payment already
made.
Actually they did have an option but if they had of rejected, it
would have been in front of TPT fast enough to make your eues
spin...and would have won.
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