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#Post#: 84675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 7, 2025, 5:11 pm
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Not quite. See Moosafeer Key Case.
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Anisha%20Moosafeer%20v%20LB%20Havering.pdf
#Post#: 84907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Turnspike
Date: August 9, 2025, 9:58 am
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So could I use something similar to this at all?
(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of
the 28 day period, an increased charge may be
payable;
(vi) the amount of the increased charge;
I don't think it included (vi)
I also don't believe it was delivered by recorded delivery. And
I certainly was not the one to accept delivery.
#Post#: 84908--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: SITR
Date: August 9, 2025, 10:03 am
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Look at it again - the increased charge is in there (£240).
As for recorded delivery, where is that in the rules?
#Post#: 84924--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 9, 2025, 1:31 pm
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All that the law requires is delivery by 1st Class post. Of
course it is totally out-of-date nowadays and needs updating to
reflect the tracking options offered by Royal Mail and others.
Will it ever be updated ? I think you know the answer already !
#Post#: 84950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Turnspike
Date: August 10, 2025, 3:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SITR link ---
>
> Look at it again - the increased charge is in there (£240).
>
> As for recorded delivery, where is that in the rules?
>
--- End Quote ---
Ah yes. You're right. It does mention the increase.
Recorded delivery was mentioned in the case shared above.
Can anyone please offer some advice on how I respond to the PCN
or how to proceed?
#Post#: 84984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: SITR
Date: August 10, 2025, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Turnspike link ---
>
> [quote author=SITR link=topic=7533.msg84908#msg84908
date=1754751804]
> Look at it again - the increased charge is in there (£240).
>
> As for recorded delivery, where is that in the rules?
>
--- End Quote ---
Ah yes. You're right. It does mention the increase.
Recorded delivery was mentioned in the case shared above.
Can anyone please offer some advice on how I respond to the PCN
or how to proceed?
[/quote]
Recorded delivery mentioned in the case above is under Scottish
law, not English.
#Post#: 84987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 10, 2025, 7:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SITR link ---
>
> Look at it again - the increased charge is in there (£240).
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes but when? If after.............
#Post#: 85009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Turnspike
Date: August 10, 2025, 10:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> [quote author=SITR link=topic=7533.msg84908#msg84908
date=1754751804]
> Look at it again - the increased charge is in there (£240).
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes but when? If after.............
[/quote]
I feel like you are giving a clue to some legislation we could
use here.
At least I hope so.
I have been looking more closely at the PCN now that I have had
a bit of time to do so, and trying to find advice on it but
would very much appreciate the experts here confirming or
telling me where I might be going wrong.
----------------
I should begin by explaining the late appeal for this PCN. The
letter was sent to an outdated address. My current residency is
elsewhere, and so I was unaware of the PCN until after the 28
day response period had passed. The mail was not forwarded onto
me or even mentioned until much later, which is completely out
of my control. I get no mail delivered to that address so I am
not in the habit of asking for any. The PCN uses dates based on
when the notice was written i.e. 14 and 28 days since, however,
this does not account for delivery time, whether or not I might
be away for the week on business or holiday and such. Let alone
not living there at all. So notice probably should be more
related to a confirmation of me becoming aware of it. Recorded
or signed delivery or some such procedure. Mail getting lost is
not exactly uncommon.
The document seems to conflate the meanings of
writing/sending/creating the notice and when I am personally
served the notice in such a way that I am aware of it and have
received it. In the last section they mention 56 days from the
date that they receive representations, showing that they
understand the difference between something being sent, and
something being brought to attention. But it is not precisely
clear that receiving the service gets the same respect. So I am
currently within the 14 days of being made aware and should be
at least offered the lower payment.
This may come under reason to cancel the PCN as the council
failed in its duty to ensure it was properly served to me, and
so denying me a fair opportunity to challenge it. The late
delivery prejudiced me.
The 'date of service' provision in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 1
to the London Local Authorities Act 2003 (LLAA 2003) does not
apply to the payment periods specified by section 4(8 )(iii) and
(iv) of the LLAA 2003, as it only applies to the authorities'
discretion to disregard representations made after the 28 day
period. So the payment period is conflated with the appeal
period. The law says it is a two working day difference.
All of these things mean that it is unclear when the 14 or 28
days begin and end. Is it when the letter is written, posted,
delivered up to two days later, or confirmed received? What if
an appeal was made on day 13, but a rejection was received on
day 15? Does that mean we have to pay the higher amount? Would
the payment period reset after communication? All of this is
unclear.
Regarding the incident itself I would also like to include
additional explanation. I am usually extremely conscienscious of
these types of things, e.g. ensuring my vehicle does not
overhang yellow lines when my wheels are inside parking spaces
etc, so it is shocking to me that I could have made this error.
There is even limited parking in the area that I live, and
though I, on a daily basis, see other drivers leave their cars
on double yellow lines, causing obstructions and/or creating
hazards all day without ever being ticketed, I always take the
extra time to find a legal place to park.
I understand that the procedure for yellow boxes is to check
that your exit is clear before you enter. In the situation I was
in, I could see the road ahead. A queue ahead was in place due
to traffic lights further up, however it was all still moving
but as I approached the lights turned from green to red. From
where I was, it seemed that there would be enough room on the
opposite side of the yellow box once the traffic had finished
crawling towards the red light given the number of cars and the
space available on the reasonably long stretch of road.
Everything was still moving as I entered. I believe it is
generally advised to leave about a metre of space between cars
in queues, and as can be seen in the image, the car directly in
front of mine seems to be leaving a gap of at least two metres.
With multiple cars ahead probably leaving larger than necessary
gaps between vehicles, I ended up forced to overlap the box.
Stationary vehicles stopped me from moving any further forward,
and of course, reversing was not a safe option.
Additionally, the road also splits into two lanes around half
way between the yellow box and the lights, so if even one
vehicle had gone into the right hand lane, I would have had more
than ample space without issue.
There is also a slip of parking spaces directly before the
lights, and it is possible that a vehicle was allowed to slip
into the queue from there as the traffic slowed down, thereby
taking the space I would have occupied.
Reviewing the video, which provides 22 seconds of footage before
the stop, we see a silver vehicle moving at some speed pass out
of view. It is 6 seconds before the next blue vehicle moves out
of view, seemingly speeding up after coming out of the junction.
The next vehicle stops in view of the camera, but considering
the speed of the previous two vehicles, you would assume there
was a reasonable amount of space ahead of them, else they should
have been slowing rather than accelerating.
Whatever the event, I ended up overlapping the box, with the
front section of my car having exited successfully. However, no
obstruction was caused, and vehicles were able to easily use the
junction without issue, as evidenced by one doing so in the
video. According to tfl the purpose of the box is to keep the
junctions clear to avoid traffic jams, and allow free exit and
entrance, especially for emergency vehicles. As long as traffic
can still flow, and gridlock is prevented, the box junction is
effective. Despite my overlap, the junction was not blocked at
all.
This is combined with the box itself being somewhat faded and
the road ahead being curved and on a hill, potentially affecting
the judgement of space available.
While it is safest for the exit to be entirely clear when a
vehicle enters the junction, the fact that it is not does not
prove a contravention. Other variables can apply and compromise
the exit. It also goes without saying that while driving, we
usually have to make decisions quite quickly
It could also be argued that the yellow box is too large for the
junction. Other similar junctions with wide curved pavements to
do not extend the box any further than necessary to provide
access to the junction. e.g. image attached
The video evidence does not show how long the vehicle was
stopped for. It comes to a halt at 22 seconds, and the video
ends at 28 seconds without showing the vehicle begin moving
again. So only 6 seconds of being stationary are proved. It may
have not been much longer before moving on again, even though no
obstruction was caused to begin with. The stop was trivial and
inconsequential.
I am sure that this will not be relevant to the appeals process
but I might also mention that I am simply not in a position to
afford this fine. I was made redundant and following that I
returned to higher education in order to improve my
qualifications and not be made redundant from my industry again.
So my current living situation is on a student budget.
So I would like the PCN cancelled for any of the following
reasons:
Not correctly delivered. Therefore unenforcable.
Unclear and contradictory legislation regarding appeal and
payment periods. Therefore unenforcable.
Vehicles preventing exit by occupying my space.
De minimis contravention. Box was almost cleared and stopped
only for a few seconds. No obstruction was caused at all.
Visibility of the end yellow box being somewhat unclear.
Yellow box being too large for the junction.
Incomplete video.
#Post#: 85023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 10, 2025, 1:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I should begin by explaining the late appeal for this PCN. The
letter was sent to an outdated address. My current residency is
elsewhere, and so I was unaware of the PCN until after the 28
day response period had passed.
--- End Quote ---
So your V5C Registration Certificate has an incorrect address
then ? If you no longer live at that address, why did you not
update your V5C ? You have been fairly lucky to have got the
PCN, albeit some time after it was served, but if you hadn't,
all the enforcement documents would have gone to that address
without you knowing, with the result you get bailiffs at your
door eventually.
#Post#: 85026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bromley Council - Entering and stopping in a box junction,
Station Rd/Access Rd Station Car Park, Sidcup
DIR By: Turnspike
Date: August 10, 2025, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> [quote]I should begin by explaining the late appeal for this
PCN. The letter was sent to an outdated address. My current
residency is elsewhere, and so I was unaware of the PCN until
after the 28 day response period had passed.
--- End Quote ---
So your V5C Registration Certificate has an incorrect address
then ? If you no longer live at that address, why did you not
update your V5C ? You have been fairly lucky to have got the
PCN, albeit some time after it was served, but if you hadn't,
all the enforcement documents would have gone to that address
without you knowing, with the result you get bailiffs at your
door eventually.
[/quote]
Ignorance basically. I have never been told that the V5C was a
thing until now.
Although my name is still on the deed to the house, so
technically the address still belongs to me even though I am
never there.
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