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#Post#: 7962--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: belikewater
Date: October 21, 2023, 8:49 am
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I have this so far...
I am writing to contest the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) I
received today while I was parked on The Strand in Saundersfoot.
The primary reason for my appeal is that the signage, which I
have included pictures of for your reference, was misleading. It
gave me the impression that waiting was permissible from the 1st
of October to the 31st of March, inclusive.
Furthermore, I would like to bring to your attention that the
PCN in question does not clearly identify the name of the
enforcing authority, which, as stated in the Contents of a
penalty charge notice served under regulation 5 b), is a
mandatory requirement.
I am eager to hear your response to my appeal.
#Post#: 7973--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: October 21, 2023, 9:20 am
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WPPP is the Welsh consortium of councils that enforce...fairly
sure that this is classed as the enforcing authority and
accepted but worth a shot, if only to see how they reply.
The post signs are mis-leading that needs to be added, not
everyone is an expert and to the average motorist imply that
restrictions only apply between the dates.
And in the back of my mind is something about DYLs that apply
for more then 6 months but not all year are acceptable with
appropriate post signs.--- A revisit to TSM is required.
Hmmmm.
TSM 3 says
13.4.3.  The double yellow line to diagram 1018.1
(S7‑4‑1, see Figure 13-6) applies at all times.
It is not used for a seasonal 24‑hour prohibition of
waiting; the single yellow line to diagram
1017 (S7‑4‑2, see Figure 13-7) is used for this
purpose.
But still have the thought that seasonal were allowed to be
marked/signed in the fashion here??
Generally if signs were historically allowed then they can
remain until replaced and I am wondering if this is the case
here?
Even if not, the post signs mis-lead and that should win at the
end.
Another edit.
Historical copy of TSM 3 dated 2008
6.7 The sign to diagram 637.3 is used where a
prohibition of waiting at any time applies for a
period less than 12 months of the year, but for at
least four consecutive months. Such a prohibition is
likely to be imposed where there is seasonal traffic,
for example at a holiday resort. The sign is used
with the double yellow line to diagram 1018.1.
Sign 637.3 is the one shown...1018.1 is DYLs
Exactly as Op shows.
This contravention didn't occur as the signage in place shows
that no restriction existed.
Cannot see a loss now
#Post#: 7975--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: slapdash
Date: October 21, 2023, 9:32 am
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You could have seasonal restrictions with DYL. If I recall
correctly they used to have to be 24/7 for a minimum of 5
months.
They are mentioned in the highway code.
October through March you can park there.
If the signage rules have changed that is highly misleading.
"13.4.3.  The double yellow line to diagram 1018.1
(S7‑4‑1, see Figure 13-6) applies at all times. It
is not used for a seasonal 24‑hour prohibition of waiting;
the single yellow line to diagram 1017 (S7‑4‑2, see
Figure 13-7) is used for this purpose. There is no time limit in
replacing any seasonal double yellow line with a single yellow
line; this should normally be done under routine
maintenance or when the road is resurfaced."
There are loads of these near me. None have been changed.
#Post#: 7984--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: roythebus
Date: October 21, 2023, 10:55 am
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There's a lot of DYL and SYL here on the south Kent coast that
are seasonal. They have the yellow plates with dates on.
#Post#: 7990--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: belikewater
Date: October 21, 2023, 11:25 am
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WOW thank you all very much for your knowledge and info!
I will put together a more comprehensive response using the
above mentions and get that sent off.
Really appreciate everyones help.
#Post#: 7991--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: October 21, 2023, 11:33 am
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--- Quote ---
> I will put together a more comprehensive response using the
above mentions and get that sent off.
--- End Quote ---
Put your final draft here for comment before sending off.
#Post#: 8000--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 21, 2023, 12:14 pm
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OP, your first post was simply a question which although it
implied that a PCN might be lurking in the background did not
say so.
You have a PCN for a waiting contravention.
IMO, your defence is that on the day in question, 21 October,
you relied upon the traffic sign which stated: No waiting at any
time 1 April-30 Sept. As the day was outside the restricted
period you assert that there was no contravention.
The facts:
DYL indicate a 24/7 restriction;
The traffic sign also indicates a 24/7 restriction, but only for
the period 1 April -30 Sept.
Therefore at any time between 1 Apr-30 Sept. the sign does not
modify the restriction because without the sign the road marking
itself conveys a 24/7 restriction.
Consequently, it must follow that between the 1 Apr and 30 Sept.
the traffic sign is redundant.
And between 1 Oct and 31 March it serves no purpose other than
to mislead and therefore does not meet the legal test for
traffic signs(reg 18 LATOR refers).
#Post#: 8003--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: belikewater
Date: October 21, 2023, 12:36 pm
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H C Andersen, appreciate the response. So would you say it's
better just to keep my appeal simple and straight to the point
that the signage is misleading?
#Post#: 8008--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 21, 2023, 1:37 pm
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--- Quote from: DancingDad link ---
>
> WPPP is the Welsh consortium of councils that enforce...fairly
sure that this is classed as the enforcing authority and
accepted but worth a shot, if only to see how they reply.
>
--- End Quote ---
WPPP is not an enforcement authority, it's a join committee of
local authorities with its own legal personality. It is also an
agent for the enforcement authority, but it is not an
enforcement authority in its own right.
[member=798]belikewater[/member] can you please post the PCN
without any redactions please?
#Post#: 8009--------------------------------------------------
Re: At any time 1 April - 30 Sept
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 21, 2023, 1:43 pm
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I would.
But I would add...
..and talking of being misleading, the PCN is unclear as to who
is the decision-making body. There are references to WPPP in the
context of payment and considering any representations and then
links to 'the Council', which is not WPPP, and then
Pembrokeshire County Council as data controller. Therefore, not
only does PCN not state who is the 'enforcement authority',
contrary to requirements, it is confusing and misleading and
therefore whoever is the 'enforcement authority' has committed a
procedural impropriety.
and as regards WPPP, whatever it is, it is not a council, it
cannot determine its own policy in respect of exercising
discretion and it is not a 'local authority' nor in its own
right subject to the Welsh Assembly's Stat Guidance.
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