DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
*****************************************************
#Post#: 83404--------------------------------------------------
variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Jakestar
Date: July 30, 2025, 3:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
Great forum and I have read the 'read this first' sticky.
I have received a NIP for an offence of exceeding variable speed
by automatic camera device - 63mph in a 50 limit. I have read
the NIP carefully and all seems in order and received within
guideline times. I have also gone onto staffordshirepas to
review the evidence and notify them that I am the driver/keeper.
my question is around this evidence - it is formed of four
photographs:
1) my car on what appears to be a relatively empty stretch of
motorway
2) close up of rear of my car showing reg on same motorway
stretch
3) same photo as 1 with some lines on it and a circle on my rear
wheel - I assume these are radar calibration lines or something
4) picture of a different looking section of motorway with
gantry signs showing '50'. this photo does NOT show my car.
My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences evidence
the evidence 'should' show your car passing speed restriction
signs. photo 1 of my car shows no such signs. it is simply my
car on a relatively empty section of motorway with no signs in
evidence and no gantry. in photo 4 of the gantry showing 50 my
car is not present and the motorway is considerably busier.
given there is no evidence directly showing my car in it with a
speed limit sign do I have grounds to contest the charge? it is
also worth noting that I do genuinely observe these limits as I
have a speed awareness course for an offence on almost the same
stretch of motorway previously within the last two years (I
think), so I am genuinely careful. Added to this I'm doing 63
mph on a normal looking motorway stretch so I'm clearly slowing
for something - probably just seen the gantry ahead of me (I'm
guessing).
the motorway is M6 northbound between j10A-13 (1 mile before J12
for the A5 Telford) and this is what photo 4 shows.
TIA
Steve
#Post#: 83420--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: JustLoveCars
Date: July 30, 2025, 5:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jakestar link ---
>
> 4) picture of a different looking section of motorway with
gantry signs showing '50'. this photo does NOT show my car.
>
--- End Quote ---
HADECS3.
The shots of your car are just past the gantry and the auxiliary
shot is contemporaneous. Your car will be in the auxiliary shot
but can sometimes be difficult to isolate. (But it's primary
purpose is to prove the prevailing limit)
There is a grace period for enforcement if the signs did
illuminate or lower after you passed the gantry.
The lines and car identify the offending vehicle.
#Post#: 83422--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: July 30, 2025, 5:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences
--- End Quote ---
Where have you read that?
#Post#: 83426--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Jakestar
Date: July 30, 2025, 5:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Southpaw82 link ---
>
> [quote]My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences
--- End Quote ---
Where have you read that?
[/quote]
just on AI internet searches on radar enforced variable speed
limits and I thought also that it was a general guideline that
the driver would be aware of the speed limit via visible means
i.e. signage and/or other. my point being that in none of the
photos is my car visible with a prevailing speed limit shown.
however if this is enough for them to prove the case and there
is no point me contesting then I will cop the COFP and move on
with my life....? my point being that there is no photo showing
my car and that gantry in the same shot. it is really difficult
using the traffic in the opposite lane to judge where my car
will have been in relation to the gantry, my guess is that I've
just gone under the gantry (as per other reply) and it was the
first one I have seen - I would have slowed sufficiently if
there had been previous gantries illuminated. from what I have
seen in replies so far I can then infer that it doesn't matter
even if this is the first gantry on the motorway showing the
speed restriction - there is no grace period for passing under
it at over that limit...?
there is no grace period applicable in terms of them having
changed suddenly - the timing on the photo says 19 mins and
change 'since last change'.
unfortunately my stupid dash cam SD card didn't have enough
memory on it and there journey has since been looped over as
this would have been conclusive either way. I have now purchased
a 512G card!!!
#Post#: 83435--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: roythebus
Date: July 30, 2025, 6:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Personally I wouldn't rely on AI for anything! It seems like
you're bng to rights sorry to say. You may get an SAC, if you
choose to contest it in course it will cost a lot of money if
you lose.
#Post#: 83439--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Jakestar
Date: July 30, 2025, 6:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
ok fair enough, I don't think ill get another SAC as I think I'm
still in the 2 year window from the last.
I was just seeking clarification as none of the photos show my
car with a limit but if they don't have to then that's fine. I
just wish id thought to put a bigger SD card in my dashcam!!
#Post#: 83440--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Rallyman72
Date: July 30, 2025, 6:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jakestar link ---
>
> [there is no grace period applicable in terms of them having
changed suddenly - the timing on the photo says 19 mins and
change 'since last change'.
>
--- End Quote ---
The system is such that there is about 30 seconds between the
sign changing and the camera enforcing the new limit as far as
I'm aware.
Your timing on the photo says it was 19 minutes prior to your
triggering the camera that the enforcement limit was last
changed.
Speed limits apply from the sign, any slowing down should be
done so that you are doing the limit as you pass the sign, I
know lots of us don't but ...
A final comment or two - do Staffordshire allow you to nominate
yourself on line - many forces don't. And that speed could just
be eligible for a course (10% +9 is my understanding) unless you
have done one in the last two years.
#Post#: 83441--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: JustLoveCars
Date: July 30, 2025, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jakestar link ---
>
> ...my point being that there is no photo showing my car and
that gantry in the same shot.
>
--- End Quote ---
As I said - your car *is* in the auxiliary shot (usually you can
make it out but it's not fatal if you can't). However, that's
immaterial as there's a shot taken at exactly the same time
showing you just past the gantry - that is sufficient to
convict.
Those AI responses can be extremely inaccurate. I guess that's
why you've asked here... ;)
#Post#: 83448--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: July 30, 2025, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
How many "r"s in "strawberry"?
Basically, all the elements of the offence need to be proven in
order to be convicted at a contested trial. There is no
requirement that all elements are proven by a single photograph.
#Post#: 83462--------------------------------------------------
Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
DIR By: Jakestar
Date: July 30, 2025, 7:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
ok - I guess my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the
photos to conclusively prove to ME that I passed under that
exact gantry at 63mph. none of the photographs show this.
however if they don't have to then this is fine - ill accept the
(likely) 3 points.
All the photos really show graphically is me driving down a
nondescript piece of motorway. Another photo of a gantry with a
speed limit on it and my car not in it. if they are allowed to
digitally prove that I am in the photo by gantry photo locations
only then that's fine. it is tantamount to stating 'your car
isn't visible in this photo but we know where photo 1 was taken
and we also know where the auxiliary was taken and even though
you aren't in the auxiliary photo the gantry location is
enough'.....?
sorry - I don't get the strawberry ref...is it because they
aren't consecutive but are all there....not sure...?
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page