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DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
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#Post#: 89237--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: September 9, 2025, 4:38 pm
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The bottom line on this is that it is a matter of who the
adjudicator believes, using the civil law test of "the balance
of probabilities". The council have no legal obligation to give
you anything at all other than that the CEO saw your car and
determined that it was over the allowed time and his notes
reflect this. Even photographs are not a legal requirement,
although most councils get their CEOs to take them nowadays.
#Post#: 89257--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: LT
Date: September 9, 2025, 6:19 pm
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^ Thanks.
My understanding is that Councils in England and Wales (I’m
unsure about Scotland) must provide details and contravention
photographs if you challenge the PCN within 28 days, allowing
you to view them before making your informal challenge.
In this case, I am ask for details to verify the time my vehicle
was first observed.
#Post#: 89265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: September 10, 2025, 1:08 am
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--- Quote from: LT link ---
>
> ^ Thanks.
>
> My understanding is that Councils in England and Wales (I’m
unsure about Scotland) must provide details and contravention
photographs if you challenge the PCN within 28 days, allowing
you to view them before making your informal challenge.
>
> In this case, I am ask for details to verify the time my
vehicle was first observed.
>
--- End Quote ---
. . . and the source of your understanding is . . ???
#Post#: 89270--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 10, 2025, 1:59 am
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Why not just pursue this matter through the enforcement and
appeal procedures and test your theories where it counts, at
adjudication?
#Post#: 89277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: LT
Date: September 10, 2025, 2:30 am
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^ One step at a time!
Let’s see what the Council’s next reply is.
If they provide evidence to support their claim, I’d be foolish
to take this case to adjudication.
#Post#: 89282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: LT
Date: September 10, 2025, 3:02 am
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> [quote author=LT link=topic=7454.msg89257#msg89257
date=1757459979]
> ^ Thanks.
>
> My understanding is that Councils in England and Wales (I’m
unsure about Scotland) must provide details and contravention
photographs if you challenge the PCN within 28 days, allowing
you to view them before making your informal challenge.
>
> In this case, I am ask for details to verify the time my
vehicle was first observed.
>
--- End Quote ---
. . . and the source of your understanding is . . ???
[/quote]
From posts on PePiPoo.
A speedy search on Google also came up with this:
HTML https://www.southampton.gov.uk/travel-transport/fines-and-charges/parking-fines/challenge-parking-fine/
I’d be interested to see the legislation which states Councils
in England and Wales do not have to provide any details or
photographs to support the issuing of a PCN. 👍
#Post#: 89291--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 10, 2025, 3:57 am
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7(1)(b).
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/7
You have seen evidence of the contravention with BANES, it's
online in the form of photos taken when the PCN was issued i.e.
when the contravention occurred...just as Southampton do as a
matter of policy, not regulatory requirement when the
contravention occurs.
What you want is evidence of events before the contravention
occurred in the form of photos.
No such thing.
The CEO's HHC would have recorded your car's presence and, as
explained almost ad nauseam, this cannot be changed. It's there
but the council is not going to jump to the beat of your drum to
produce and send this at this stage.
#Post#: 89296--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: LT
Date: September 10, 2025, 4:26 am
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I have asked BANES for evidence to support their claim.
That evidence could, for example, be a screenshot from the CEO’s
HHC.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation.
#Post#: 89302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 10, 2025, 5:14 am
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We advise as regards the law and established practice and
looking at previous posts I think this has been exhausted.
You're entitled to put your point to the authority as you have
done.
But IMO belabouring your view here won't change matters.
#Post#: 89362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Proof of observed times.
DIR By: LT
Date: September 10, 2025, 10:12 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> 7(1)(b).
>
>
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/7
>
> You have seen evidence of the contravention with BANES, it's
online in the form of photos taken when the PCN was issued i.e.
when the contravention occurred...
>
--- End Quote ---
With respect, this is where you are missing the point. The
alleged contravention is a Code:30 - parked for longer than
permitted in a limited waiting bay.
As I have said "ad nauseum", I have, so far at least, only
received confirmation of when the PCN was issued, NOT when my
car was first observed.
As such I don't have evidence to prove that the a Code:30
contravention occurred. Other than a time printed on the PCN.
I'm not inclined to jump to the beat of the council's drum and
pay them a financial penalty without evidence to support their
claim.
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