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DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
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#Post#: 88468--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 4, 2025, 4:14 pm
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I entered Cranbrook from York Road and turned left i.e. north.
This junction lies within the area: 'the effect of which will be
to introduce on Cranbrook Road a ban on U-turn movements in both
directions between a point 26 metres south of the southern
kerb-line of York Road and a point 40 metres north of the
northern kerb-line of Wellesley Road. (the council's traffic
order refers).
The council has not placed any signs, prescribed or otherwise,
in York Road to warn drivers that as soon as they enter
Cranbrook Road they are subject to a no U-Turn prohibition. As
this prohibition applies as soon as a driver enters Cranbrook
Road, it follows that the no U-turn sign in the video, which is
placed improperly in any event because it is within a puffin
crossing controlled area, is not a prohibition sign in itself
(which presumably lies '26 metres south of the southern
kerb-line of York Road') but can only be a repeater sign.
Therefore, although I executed (and the authority accepts) a
U-turn before passing this sign, the authority is quite correct
when it states in the NOR that as 'the prohibition applies to
the whole[prohibited] length of Cranbrook not solely after the
point at which the signs are passed' I committed a contravention
of their Order.
But I submit that the authority may not enforce U-turns before
this unlawful sign because they have not informed drivers
joining from York Road that they are within a prohibited area as
soon as they join Cranbrook Road and have completely glossed
over their shortcoming in this regard in the NOR. Instead, they
glibly state that 'it is the driver's responsibility to look out
for signage' while ignoring the fact that if they haven't placed
sufficient signs in the first place then no degree of driver
diligence could see non-existent signs.
#Post#: 88502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: ss201
Date: September 5, 2025, 2:09 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> I entered Cranbrook from York Road and turned left i.e. north.
>
> This junction lies within the area: 'the effect of which will
be to introduce on Cranbrook Road a ban on U-turn movements in
both directions between a point 26 metres south of the southern
kerb-line of York Road and a point 40 metres north of the
northern kerb-line of Wellesley Road. (the council's traffic
order refers).
>
> The council has not placed any signs, prescribed or otherwise,
in York Road to warn drivers that as soon as they enter
Cranbrook Road they are subject to a no U-Turn prohibition. As
this prohibition applies as soon as a driver enters Cranbrook
Road, it follows that the no U-turn sign in the video, which is
placed improperly in any event because it is within a puffin
crossing controlled area, is not a prohibition sign in itself
(which presumably lies '26 metres south of the southern
kerb-line of York Road') but can only be a repeater sign.
Therefore, although I executed (and the authority accepts) a
U-turn before passing this sign, the authority is quite correct
when it states in the NOR that as 'the prohibition applies to
the whole[prohibited] length of Cranbrook not solely after the
point at which the signs are passed' I committed a contravention
of their Order.
>
> But I submit that the authority may not enforce U-turns before
this unlawful sign because they have not informed drivers
joining from York Road that they are within a prohibited area as
soon as they join Cranbrook Road and have completely glossed
over their shortcoming in this regard in the NOR. Instead, they
glibly state that 'it is the driver's responsibility to look out
for signage' while ignoring the fact that if they haven't placed
sufficient signs in the first place then no degree of driver
diligence could see non-existent signs.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for the detailed response, it does highlight how
inefficient their signage was and more a money grabbing
opportunity than anything. That part really stood out for me
'the driver's responsibility'! If I have understood correctly, I
need to fill in the form so that it now goes to court. And the
fine would be £160 as the two weeks will be up. It still feels
like there's a chance it could be waived and may worth pursuing?
#Post#: 88506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: John_S
Date: September 5, 2025, 3:09 am
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Just a few quick observations adding to the full reply given by
@H_C_Andersen :
- It’s well worth taking and submitting photos of a driver’s
view in York Road on the approach to Cranbrook Road, to prove
there are no advance warning signs.
- It’s worth referencing the specific part of the TSRGD that
precludes the No U-Turn sign from being placed within a puffin
controlled area, otherwise an adjudicator may dismiss the point.
- It may also be worth mentioning the Traffic Signs Manual
Chapter 3 (4.11) that states the sign should be on the driver’s
LEFT (and can then be duplicated on the right). But remember
this is not the law.
- Check the sign at the start of the restriction further south
in Cranbrook Rd. It should have a distance plate mounted beneath
it. And, there should be a sign 40m north of Wellesley Road with
an “End” plate beneath it. If not, this will add weight to your
case.
#Post#: 88563--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: ss201
Date: September 5, 2025, 9:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: John_S link ---
>
> Just a few quick observations adding to the full reply given
by @H_C_Andersen :
>
> - It’s well worth taking and submitting photos of a driver’s
view in York Road on the approach to Cranbrook Road, to prove
there are no advance warning signs.
>
> - It’s worth referencing the specific part of the TSRGD that
precludes the No U-Turn sign from being placed within a puffin
controlled area, otherwise an adjudicator may dismiss the point.
>
> - It may also be worth mentioning the Traffic Signs Manual
Chapter 3 (4.11) that states the sign should be on the driver’s
LEFT (and can then be duplicated on the right). But remember
this is not the law.
>
> - Check the sign at the start of the restriction further south
in Cranbrook Rd. It should have a distance plate mounted beneath
it. And, there should be a sign 40m north of Wellesley Road with
an “End” plate beneath it. If not, this will add weight to your
case.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, I remember seeing the sign with end on it. I will double
check and take pictures.
#Post#: 88712--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: NTIAEP
Date: September 6, 2025, 3:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Evening All
It's for this exact junction that I recently posted the
following question/thread in the forum:
herewhen-does-a-no-u-turn-sign-become-effective?
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/wherewhen-does-a-no-u-turn-sign-become-effective/
To circumvent the "no right turn" out of York Rd, I used to take
a left and then proceed to make a u-turn when it was safe to do
so, which prompted the above
....and FYI - if you look at the video, you'll see there's a "no
u-turn" sign affixed (and angled towards York Rd) to the
lamppost on the other side of the road.
#Post#: 88717--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: September 6, 2025, 4:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RichardW link ---
>
> There might be other failures in the PCN, please post the full
thing - both sides.
>
--- End Quote ---
There are.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/london-borough-of-redbridge-code-31j/msg88710/#msg88710
PM sent.
#Post#: 88744--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 7, 2025, 4:37 am
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[member=898]NTIAEP[/member], IMO the problem with this
'....and FYI - if you look at the video, you'll see there's a
"no u-turn" sign affixed (and angled towards York Rd) to the
lamppost on the other side of the road.' even if it flew would
be that repeater signs are of the same size as initial
prohibition signs. So, even if it was accepted that this sign
gave adequate warning to drivers entering from York, this would
be warning of what: you are already in a no U-turn area(and
therefore wherever you turn would be a contravention) or that
the prohibition starts at this sign?
#Post#: 88749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: NTIAEP
Date: September 7, 2025, 5:11 am
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Agreed. Hence my previous question/thread.
#Post#: 88898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: September 8, 2025, 5:00 am
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[member=1023]ss201[/member] How do you calculate the 14 day
period? When did you receive the NOR? Sorry, my PM was referring
to another TMO for a different road.
#Post#: 88904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Penalty charge notice for U turn
DIR By: ss201
Date: September 8, 2025, 5:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> [member=1023]ss201[/member] How do you calculate the 14 day
period? When did you receive the NOR? Sorry, my PM was referring
to another TMO for a different road.
>
--- End Quote ---
No problem, they said 14 day period from the day I received it,
that should be 15 Sep, so I want to send everything by Friday.
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