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#Post#: 81827--------------------------------------------------
Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street N3
DIR By: asm99
Date: July 20, 2025, 4:56 pm
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On 11/07, the vehicle was turning right through a yellow box
junction but was not able to completely exit the box as the
vehicles ahead hadn't completed the right hand turn. The Nether
Street/Regents Park Road N3 junction is poorly laid out, with
two right-turn lanes on Nether Street joining one lane on
Regents Park Road. The PCN was received on 16/07.
TSRGD 2016 states "The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does
not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of
the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of
turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the
vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn."
Do you think this PCN is worth contesting with this argument?
There was another post on FTLA at the same box junction with the
same argument made, but the poster had their informal appeal
rejected and chose not to pursue it.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/barnet-31j-pcn/15/
Thank you!
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DUYOrts.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/y2BP9n6.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NNi5Dzf.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7aufYXy.png
HTML https://imgur.com/ZZV05fg
HTML https://imgur.com/ZZV05fg
#Post#: 81832--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: Al
Date: July 20, 2025, 5:20 pm
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I know this junction well! Others may be able to dissect the PCN
for inconsistencies but in terms of the contravention it
unfortunately looks pretty clear. Although you are turning right
against oncoming traffic, it is run by traffic lights. The box
is painted visibly and perhaps a little awkward there is
visibility to the right.
#Post#: 81837--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 20, 2025, 5:44 pm
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Out of interest, why do you consider the right turn exemption
does not apply?
#Post#: 81848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: Al
Date: July 20, 2025, 6:32 pm
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I'm pretty sure right turn YBJ exemptions are against oncoming
traffic. This junction is run by filtered light sequences so
there is no oncoming traffic in the OPs instance. For example,
It would be valid if coming from the North Finchley side (bottom
left on the image) and wanting to turn right down Nether Street
where OP came from. I can't cite sources but seem to remember
coming across this when I previously appealed a 31J
contravention
#Post#: 81849--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 20, 2025, 6:34 pm
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It often seems to be interpreted that way but (imo) if you read
the exemption the way it's worded you have to be prevented from
turning by oncoming traffic OR another vehicle waiting to
complete a right turn. The latter is an alternative to the
former.
However in this case the car in front may already have completed
the right turn in which case it's academic!
#Post#: 81850--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: July 20, 2025, 6:41 pm
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I think this type of box junction contravention is a grey area
as it can be hard to tell if a right turn exit is blocked before
you enter the box so if in any doubt are you supposed to not
enter the box to look, which would create a lot of blocks to
traffic flow where these situations resolve quickly, but some of
them don't...
Clearly it's not subject to the oncoming traffic exemption but
as Mr Chips says a case can be made for the second limb of the
exemption if read as exclusive from the first.
#Post#: 81860--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: mickR
Date: July 21, 2025, 2:33 am
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I would have said the second limb makes it pretty clear it's not
a contravention
TSRGD 2016 states "The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does
not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of
the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of
turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the
vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an
oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst
waiting to complete a right turn."
I don't see any ambiguity there
#Post#: 81864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: mickR
Date: July 21, 2025, 3:18 am
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--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> However in this case the car in front may already have
completed the right turn in which case it's academic!
>
--- End Quote ---
but the van hadn't
#Post#: 81866--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 21, 2025, 3:33 am
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> I think this type of box junction contravention is a grey area
as it can be hard to tell if a right turn exit is blocked before
you enter the box...
>
--- End Quote ---
Again I've seen it interpreted that the right turn exit must be
clear before entering, but the turning right exemption
explicitly says that part of the rule (i.e. paragraph one) does
not apply in those circumstances.
#Post#: 82084--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council. PCN. 31J Yellow Box Junction Nether Street
N3
DIR By: asm99
Date: July 22, 2025, 6:16 am
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Thanks for your responses; it seems the general opinion is that
the right turn exemption may apply so it's worth appealing on
this basis.
I have done some more reading of adjudicator decisions regarding
yellow boxes and it seems there may also be a de minimis
argument to be made on the basis that the vehicle was stationary
within the box junction for just short of 7 seconds. I am aware
that there is no minimum time, but it seems certain adjudicators
have considered 7-8 seconds to be de minimis.
Is it worth including both arguments in the informal appeal?
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