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#Post#: 7548--------------------------------------------------
31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: Goatzie1234
Date: October 16, 2023, 2:47 pm
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Hi all,
I was wondering if you feel I have grounds for appeal on the PCN
I recently received.
This was on a very congested day and the lights at the box
junction change very quick. It does appear that there is room in
front of me, probably enough for me to fit, however there is a
double decker bus turning and I wanted to give a wide berth.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPkknDQEx80
PCN
HTML https://ibb.co/km7w9my
HTML https://ibb.co/Kh18MVP
Box junction is here
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/VFTpZFmoq6AvKaJ46
Peartree way
Would this qualify as de minimis ?
HTML https://ibb.co/xq02zjv
HTML https://ibb.co/S5R6jK4
From the PCN screenshots it looks like just one wheel in the
yellow
Any help would be much appreciated
G
#Post#: 7552--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 16, 2023, 3:33 pm
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It's not your wheels that count but how much of the car intrudes
into the box. I would say this is not de-minimis because you are
partly blocking traffic emerging from under the bridge in the
outside lane. It's difficult to see a win here, I'm afraid.
#Post#: 7554--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: Goatzie1234
Date: October 16, 2023, 3:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for checking.
To be honest. I am a bit confused on what I should have done
here.
The lights turn green at the same time from where I left and the
road merging with the bus.
As can be seen from google maps, there is no room for a car to
wait before where the traffic merges.
If I had gone any further I would have made contact with the
bus. If I had not entered the box junction I would have been
there all day and infuriated a whole lane of traffic
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#Post#: 7557--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: MrChips
Date: October 16, 2023, 4:11 pm
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There's a couple of things in your favour.
The video starts after you've already entered the box. Usually
it has to show the moment of entry as that's the moment the
offence is committed. You are only slightly in the box at the
start but you are stationary so you could have entered many
seconds earlier when traffic conditions were different. Without
the video showing that moment, who's to say?
You also may have space to exit at the other end. To me it
looks like you come to a halt because you see that motorbike
trying to squeeze through the gap and you stop to avoid an
accident / give way.
#Post#: 7558--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: October 16, 2023, 4:13 pm
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--- Quote from: Goatzie1234 link ---
>
> Thanks for checking.
> To be honest. I am a bit confused on what I should have done
here.
> The lights turn green at the same time from where I left and
the road merging with the bus.
> As can be seen from google maps, there is not room for a car
to wait before where the traffic merges.
> If I had gone any further I would have made contact with tepee
bus. If I had not entered the box junction I would have been
there all day and infuriated a whole lane of traffic
--- End Quote ---
It'a typical crappy council traffic lights arrangement. They
have no incentive whatsoever to improve matters as it will be
making them shedloads of money. Just your luck a bus came along
!
You could submit reps on the basis that a motorist going forward
from your direction, and seeing a space beyond the YBJ, has an
expectation that the junction traffic lights will be operated to
allow his direction to proceed. When you entered the box, there
was space on the other side. It's not as if there was stationary
traffic there when you entered. So that would be my argument,
but with the venality of London councils, I expect you will have
to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN penalty,
as there is no discount option there.
So, stand your ground or pay-up !
#Post#: 7560--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: Goatzie1234
Date: October 16, 2023, 4:21 pm
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I fear I might just have to pay up.
They are printing money from this junction…
Really doesn’t seem right…
#Post#: 7564--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: guest17
Date: October 16, 2023, 4:28 pm
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What a silly set up. The OP's direction of travel is covered by
traffic lights yet they don't stop traffic converging from the
left. So we are left with a nice little trap--KERCHING!
Three key considerations:-
1) As already said --there is space for the OP's vehicle to
completely exit the box, he/she is merely being careful of the
bus.
2) The video IMO shows that the OP's exit was clear on entering
the box.
3) I see no distinction between a vehicle entering the box and
causing an obstruction to the OP's vehicle OR a vehicle which
conveges on the extremity of the box thereby causing an
obstruction. Both prevent an anticipated exit when that exit was
clear on entry to the box.
Mike
#Post#: 7620--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: Goatzie1234
Date: October 17, 2023, 8:45 am
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Thanks Mike
There might be space in front of me but if I would have filled
it enough to get out of the box junction there would have been
contact between me and the bus.
This is the annoying part. I’m genuinely not sure what else I
could have done in this situation and I resent having to pay
Greenwich council, who are a dreadful council btw. But then, I
can’t afford to risk it. They really have you over a barrel!
#Post#: 7661--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 17, 2023, 5:41 pm
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The video starts with the vehicle already stationary in the box,
it then starts moving and stops again. The contravention is at
the point of entry, which was not at 3:29, it must have been
3:28 or earlier, therefore this is an easy challenge:
[indent]
Dear Royal Borough of Greenwich,
The video confirms my vehicle did not enter any box junction at
3:29, on the contrary the video confirms my car had already
entered the box junction at 3:28, and unfortunately the video
does not show the point of entry, which must have been before
the start of the video.
Furthermore, the video shows that there was space beyond the box
which my vehicle could have used to exit the box, I did not make
use of this space as doing so would have involved cutting in
front of the bus.
As no contravention of entering a box occurred at 3:29, the
contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur and the penalty
charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send it online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
#Post#: 7700--------------------------------------------------
Re: 31J - entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited Peartree way, Greenwich
DIR By: Goatzie1234
Date: October 18, 2023, 7:15 am
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Damn, I should have waited.
I already registered a appeal which got rejected. In hindsight,
my appeal was not very good as I was quite annoyed at the time
and the limit of 1000 characters runs out very quick. I had said
that
To you think it is worth taking this to the next step in the
appeals process?
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