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#Post#: 7491--------------------------------------------------
Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 15, 2023, 3:50 pm
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I received the attached County Court claim form today for
parking in a location for 19 minutes. It's not a car park and it
was from 22.38 pm until 22.57 pm I was unaware that I could not
park there as I could not see any signs at night. I did check
after I received the fine in the post and they do have signs
saying it's a private car park.
I need to fill in the claim form and put up a case to fight the
claim.
What is the best way forward?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 7492--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: October 15, 2023, 4:17 pm
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--- Quote from: BigPoppa link ---
>
> I need to fill in the claim form and put up a case to fight
the claim.
>
--- End Quote ---
Before we get into any of the details of the case - it's usually
advised not to fill in the paper forms that you have been sent,
but to instead conduct the process online, using the 'MCOL'
system. There's a guide to that and the whole court process on
the MSE Forum, see this link:
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/64350585/#Comment_64350585<br
/>If you haven't been to court before I'd advise reading it
thoroughly.
--- Quote from: BigPoppa link ---
> What is the best way forward?
--- End Quote ---
On what grounds are you planning to run your defence?
To offer any detailed advice we could do with some more info,
including:
- A copy of the original PCN, and any appeal(s) you submitted,
alongside their responses
- Photographs of the signage at the site - ideally some closeup
showing the contents, and some showing the layout, and whether
or not they were 'there to be seen', well-placed or otherwise
- A Google Street View link to whereabouts the vehicle was
parked, if available
#Post#: 7562--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 16, 2023, 4:26 pm
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Thanks for the reply[member=103]DWMB2[/member]
I have attached the original PCN and I haven't been in touch
with them at all so nothing else to add in terms of responses.
I have attached some more images of the area including the signs
-
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Ftqhm1x
It was nighttime when I was parked there and I could not see the
signs as the lighting was not great. My car was facing the road
and therefore I did not see any signage about parking there. I
have parked there in the past and not had a fine so I think this
is a new measure they have taken.
I had to park there in haste because my mother had taken a fall
whilst walking up steps at night and as I'm her main driver I
came to collect her and had displayed her disabled badge
thinking it would be OK.
Here is the Google link -
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shelter+Furniture+Shop/@52.5167494,-1.9943832,3a,75y,53.15h,77.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgk2Y91qnkUTKFEQQNpY-uA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x48709802502e27e3:0x91ce427b3455bbc5!2sKings+Square+Shopping+Centre!8m2!3d52.51719!4d-1.9932703!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1hc7nn3dd!3m5!1s0x48709802502e27e3:0x11fca1d01122cbb!8m2!3d52.5170092!4d-1.9940263!16s%2Fg%2F11b6hz0klz?entry=ttu
#Post#: 7571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: October 16, 2023, 5:11 pm
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For a private parking "penalty" to be enforceable, it would have
to be liquidated damages specified in a contract - usually
formed by an offer of some valuable right (e.g. the right to
park) in exchange for some valuable consideration from the
driver. The offer would generally be communicated by adequate
signage and accepted by parking and allowing the car to remain
parked beyond a reasonable time necessary to read the offer and
decide whether or not to accept it. A £100 charge would need to
be commercially justified, and displayed prominently as it would
be an onerous clause.
From GSV in bright daylight, the signs are "there to be seen"
(in bright daylight). I am not convinced that the onerous charge
for breach is particularly conspicuous, but IMHO the biggest
issue is that the signage is "forbidding" - it does not offer
any right to park to any group of which you are a member, so
there can be no contract.
The other obvious issue is "keeper liability" - has the PPC
complied with the requirements to hold the keeper liable for any
debt owed by the unidentified driver? As DWMB2 has said, to
determine this, we would need to see both sides of the actual
Notice to Keeper (or first PCN).
Personally, I wouldn't want to have to rely solely on a defence
of "prove it was me driving" in a civil case (on the balance of
probabilities).
#Post#: 7575--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 16, 2023, 5:36 pm
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Thanks [member=10]andy_foster[/member]
Here is the other side of the PCN.
Let me know if you need anything else.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 7621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 17, 2023, 10:08 am
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The statutory warning is found in para. 4(4) of Sch. 4 to PoFA,
not 14 as the notice to keeper states. This may be considered a
typo. However, IMO no such leeway should be given as regards the
statutory warning.
PoFA requires this warning to be given in a NTK, and in this
case it is not. The statutory period which must elapse before
this right [to enforce against the keeper] may be exercised by
the creditor is 28 days beginning on the day after that on which
the notice is given, NOT 21 days as stated in the NTK.
#Post#: 7625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 17, 2023, 10:58 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
>
> The statutory warning is found in para. 4(4) of Sch. 4 to
PoFA, not 14 as the notice to keeper states. This may be
considered a typo. However, IMO no such leeway should be given
as regards the statutory warning.
>
> PoFA requires this warning to be given in a NTK, and in this
case it is not. The statutory period which must elapse before
this right [to enforce against the keeper] may be exercised by
the creditor is 28 days beginning on the day after that on which
the notice is given, NOT 21 days as stated in the NTK.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, [member=428]H C Andersen[/member] can you help me draft
a defence response?
#Post#: 7926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 21, 2023, 3:21 am
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Are there any other points I should be thinking about?
Thanks.
#Post#: 8101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: October 22, 2023, 1:28 pm
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Looking on Google Street View and your images, the signage isn't
brilliant, and might not be the most visible at night - although
the entrance sign looks reasonably prominent, which might not
help you - you'd need to make a convincing argument that it was
not visible from the angle you entered.
I think the main point you've got in your favour is as outlined
by andy_foster, that the signage is forbidding and therefore
unable to create a contract.
#Post#: 8173--------------------------------------------------
Re: Euro Parking County court letter
DIR By: BigPoppa
Date: October 23, 2023, 8:13 am
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Thanks [member=103]DWMB2[/member]
I have filled out MCOL today, how to acknowledge service ('AOS')
Does this mean that I have until 17/11 to reply since the date
of the claim form is 12/10?
I will draft a defense and upload it here for you guys to have a
read.
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