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#Post#: 84869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: bumper31
Date: August 9, 2025, 2:33 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> You posted: Why someone doesn't look at this and the fact that
the car has "always" been compliant should negate any fine, paid
or otherwise?
>
> Because you are going about this the wrong way IMO.
>
> Simply ask TfL whether VRM ***** is compliant and when this
took effect. Time lags in updating systems are NOT the
motorist's concern, they're TfL's.
>
> If TfL had no lawful authority to demand a penalty in the
first place, then whether payment was made or not is irrelevant.
But you would need to face them with their own evidence - their
response to you(and you might need to coax this out of them) -
to do this IMO.
>
--- End Quote ---
I get this now, sorry for it to take so long to sink in.....
1st message sent as per your recommendation
#Post#: 84881--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: 404BrainNotFound
Date: August 9, 2025, 4:40 am
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On the facts you have provided, the critical point is that the
vehicle in question was, and remains, Ultra Low Emission Zone
compliant within the meaning of the Greater London Low Emission
Zone Charging Order 2006 (as amended) and the subsequent Ultra
Low Emission Zone Scheme made under section 295 and Schedule 23
to the Greater London Authority Act 1999. If TfL had no lawful
entitlement to levy a penalty because the vehicle was exempt at
the time of the alleged contravention, any Penalty Charge Notice
purportedly issued in respect of it was a nullity. It follows
that any payment made in respect of such a notice, whether
voluntary or involuntary, is recoverable on grounds of
restitution for unjust enrichment. The fact that your leasing
company discharged the penalties without your consent, and
without seeking a transfer of liability under the statutory
scheme, does not extinguish the underlying unlawfulness.
The statutory framework provides, under paragraph 2 of Schedule
1 to the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication)
(London) Regulations 2001, that where a Penalty Charge Notice is
served on the registered keeper but the vehicle was, at the
material time, hired or leased under a qualifying agreement, the
keeper may transfer liability to the hirer by making formal
representations within 28 days, supported by a statement of
liability and a copy of the hire agreement. This provision is
mirrored in TfL's own procedural guidance. In your case, the
lease company failed to avail itself of that statutory
mechanism, and instead made payment, thereby extinguishing their
right of appeal. However, the absence of an appeal does not
legitimise an unlawful demand ab initio. Where money is paid in
consequence of an unlawful demand by a public authority, it may
be recovered either by the payor or by the party who has
suffered the loss, provided a sufficient nexus of authority
exists between them.
The cause of action against TfL lies in restitution for money
had and received, arising from an ultra vires demand. The cause
of action against the lease company, if pursued, would be framed
in breach of bailment and/or breach of contract, on the basis
that they paid sums for which you were not liable and then
sought to recover those sums from you without lawful basis. If
the lease agreement contains terms that purport to authorise the
lease company to pay and recharge all penalties without
discretion, those terms may still be subject to the implied duty
to act rationally and in good faith, and not to recover sums
arising from an unlawful charge. Both parties could therefore be
joined as defendants: TfL as the primary wrongdoer in making the
unlawful demand, and the lease company as a secondary wrongdoer
in discharging and recharging an unlawful sum to your account.
If you elect to pursue TfL alone, the letter of claim would be
addressed solely to them. If you join the leasing company, it
would be copied and marked as notice of intended proceedings in
which they would be named as a joint defendant.
The form of words for such a letter might be as follows:
[Your address]
[Date]
Transport for London
Road User Charging Correspondence
PO Box 343
Darlington DL1 9QD
Dear Sirs
Re: Unlawful Demand and Payment – Ultra Low Emission Zone
Penalty Charge Notice No. [reference]
I write in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt
Claims and the Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct. I am the
hirer of vehicle registration mark [VRM] under a lease agreement
with [Lease Company]. At all material times, this vehicle met
the emissions criteria for exemption from the Ultra Low Emission
Zone charge, as confirmed by your own vehicle compliance
database.
On [date], you issued a Penalty Charge Notice alleging
non-compliance with the ULEZ Scheme. This penalty was paid by my
leasing company without my consent and without transferring
liability to me under paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to the Road User
Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication) (London) Regulations
2001. You were not entitled in law to issue or enforce the said
Penalty Charge Notice, as the vehicle was compliant at all
material times.
Your demand for payment was ultra vires and constitutes an
unlawful act for which you are strictly liable to make
restitution. The sum of £[amount] was paid in consequence of
your unlawful demand. I require repayment of that sum within 14
days of the date of this letter.
If the sum is not repaid within that period, I will issue
proceedings in the County Court without further notice, claiming
restitution for money had and received, interest pursuant to
section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984, and my legal costs.
If the leasing company is to be named as a joint defendant:
For the avoidance of doubt, this letter is also copied to [Lease
Company] as proposed joint defendant, on the basis that they
have wrongfully paid the said unlawful penalties and sought to
recharge me for them, contrary to the implied duty to act in
good faith and the law of bailment. Should repayment not be
forthcoming, proceedings will be issued against both parties,
jointly and severally, without further notice.
Yours faithfully
[Name]
The next step is to obtain from TfL a formal written
confirmation of the vehicle's compliance status and the date
from which the personalised registration was recognised as
compliant in their database. That will form the central
evidential plank of your claim, as it will demonstrate that no
contravention ever occurred. Once that is secured, the claim
should be advanced promptly to avoid any limitation or
procedural defence.
#Post#: 84892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 9, 2025, 7:13 am
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The next step is to obtain from TfL a formal written
confirmation of the vehicle's compliance status and the date
from which the personalised registration was recognised as
compliant in their database.
I think this is exactly what I posted except mine was, may I
say, in a more concise form!
#Post#: 84905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: bumper31
Date: August 9, 2025, 9:22 am
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Perfect @404 - thanks
As per Mr Andersen, I have made the 1st step to confirm ULEZ
conformance.
The lease company confirmed it is their T&Cs and to pay PCNs
without transfer of liability.
I'll post again once I get a reply.
As they say, it isn't the money it is the principle!
Thanks
#Post#: 88407--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: bumper31
Date: September 4, 2025, 9:52 am
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Hi,
I have had a response from TFL, basically they are telling me
they will only say it is compliant, and they "can't" say the
date from which it is compliant:
Thank you for your recent correspondence received on 15 August
2025, regarding your Ultra Low Emission Zone
(ULEZ) T30JDC.
Please be advised that as the your vehicle registration T30JDC
has been updated directly by Driver and Vehicle
Licensing Agency (DVLA) we do not hold this information and we
are unable to give you the exact date the DVLA has
added it to our system.
We would therefore advise you contact them directly to request
this information.
If you have any questions, please visit tfl.gov.uk/ulez or call
us on 0343 222 2222 (text phone 0207 649 9123 if you
have impaired hearing).
Shall I chase DVLA for this info? Or shall I just go with Mr
404's approach?
Thanks
Bumper
#Post#: 88411--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: bumper31
Date: September 4, 2025, 10:36 am
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Can't help but feel I am being given the run around here -
I asked DVLA when TFL would have the VRM added to their database
for ULEZ compliance and this was their reply - typos
included....
"Thank you for your enquiry on 04/09/2025
I appreciate you taking the time to contact us in this matter.
This is incorrect. DVAALA duo not hold TFL Ulez information.
Please contact TfL.
I hope this information is of assistance."
I have now gone back and tried to be specific about the date at
which T30 JDC just "went live"
I am not holding out much hope
John
#Post#: 105898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leased vehicle ULEZ PCN
DIR By: bumper31
Date: January 14, 2026, 12:19 pm
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Good evening - I am back.
Looking for next step advice please.
I wrote to DVLA and TFL and they won't give me a date on which
the TFL database was updated - just a confirmation that TFL get
their data from DVLA.
"Thank you for your recent correspondence received on 15 August
2025, regarding your Ultra Low Emission Zone
(ULEZ) T30JDC.
Please be advised that as the your vehicle registration T30JDC
has been updated directly by Driver and Vehicle
Licensing Agency (DVLA) we do not hold this information and we
are unable to give you the exact date the DVLA has
added it to our system.
We would therefore advise you contact them directly to request
this information."
So I wrote to DVLA and got confirmation that their records
updated 14th April 2025.
I then wrote a LBA to TFL and sent it tracked signed for - Nov
3rd.
I have now waited long enough before I want to claim me
monies.......
I went to MCOL to find out I can't use it against TFL,
So with my begging bowl out - what would be the next step
please?
Thanks
Bumper
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