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#Post#: 79068--------------------------------------------------
Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: rocky
Date: July 1, 2025, 7:56 am
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Hi all,
I received a PCN from Redbridge Council for entering a School
Street during restricted hours, and I would appreciate advice on
whether there are any valid grounds for appeal.
Details:
Contravention Date: 18 June 2025
PCN Issue Date: 24 June 2025
PCN Received: 30 June 2025
Discount Period Ends: 7 July 2025 (14 days from PCN issue date,
not receipt — is this correct?)
My Grounds for Appeal:
Inadequate Signage / Visibility Issues
The School Street restriction sign is placed at the entrance to
the street but is not visible until after the turn has been
initiated from Horns Road into the School Street.
There is a sign on Horns Road, but it's unclear which street it
applies to, especially when turning right out of the Aldi car
park.
According to Redbridge Council’s own website, vehicles should
pass three statutory signs and two temporary signs to incur a
PCN. In my case, I only passed one partially visible sign on
Horns Road and one sign at the entrance, which is not visible
prior to turning.
PCN Video footage shared by Redbridge:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/114fBq_k7lRK9avS8jsRhSFKO42s9cwEV/view?usp=drive_link
GMaps Route:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/LiWZH1GFthRiiV7N6
Street View from Aldi:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/AryEwCCXeS91rPVw8
Street view of the school street sign:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/YJRG1WtFYqEWPXZd9
Video of dashcam from a different day but showing the school
street turning:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eqIxso-DmTX56ue09eZcpPmIUByYDbIM/view?usp=drive_link
Video of walk footage from Aldi/B&M exit to turning right onto
school street:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vn7C40n720f41EOmuht9Qx0Ud1__z7Pr/view?usp=drive_link
Unclear Term Time Dates
I was not aware that the date (18 June) fell within term time.
There was no information or signage indicating term dates at the
location.
The sign mentions restrictions during "term time," but there’s
no easy way to confirm this when driving. Does lack of clear
information about term dates constitute a defence?
PCN Timing / Discount Period
The PCN is dated 24 June 2025 but was delivered on 30 June 2025.
The discount period ends on 7 July 2025, which is only 7 days
from receipt. Is that in line with proper enforcement?
Question:
Based on the above, do I have valid grounds to challenge this
PCN? I’m especially concerned about the signage being
insufficient for drivers exiting Aldi and turning right. Any
help would be greatly appreciated!
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 79078--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 1, 2025, 8:45 am
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The blue sign below the main one stating "Term time only" has
won appeals at London Tribunals as it is not a traffic sign, nor
does it reflect the traffic order, so is unlawful. Hopefully,
Hippocrates will confirm what I have said.
#Post#: 79115--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 1, 2025, 1:31 pm
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PM received and will deal with a draft later. Stuck in Kos at
present without a passport.
#Post#: 79157--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 2, 2025, 2:41 am
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I would be honest and state what signage you actually saw and
did not see. You seem to be on top of this aspect. I would also
state that the blue sign caused confusion and you had no time to
see it anyway. What about warning signage? Did you see that?
#Post#: 79576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: rocky
Date: July 4, 2025, 8:39 am
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Thank you so much for your response!
I am sharing the signs that I saw and those that I totally
missed. The first screenshot shows two signs: the first sign
circled red (blue school street sign) was covered by the tree
branches and I must have overlooked that. The second one marked
green was visible.
The second screenshot shows the image as I approach further.
Both the enforcement signs are facing the other way and I didn't
see it until I made the turn. There was not much traffic that
day, so I didn't even had to stop for the oncoming traffic. So,
I quickly made the right turn.
Also, the PCN letter states: The Penalty Charge of £160.00 is
now payable and must be paid before the end of the period of 28
days beginning with the date of this notice. While on the back
of the PCN, it says "You may make representations before the end
of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which this
notice was served".
The first statement doesn't seem right to me in that the count
starts from the date of the notice instead of when the notice
was served. Does this help my case ?
I received the PCN letter only on 30 Jun while PCN was dated 24
Jun. I see that the envelope says 1st class, yet it was
delivered so late from the notice date.
Do I have enough grounds ? I have some travel plans, so I was
thinking of holding out filing an appeal until later, which
means I will lose the opportunity to pay the discounted charge.
I'd really like some advice on whether I have reasonable grounds
for appeal and worth taking a bet on not paying the discounted
charge now.
Look forward to your advice. Thanks for all the help!
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 79823--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: rocky
Date: July 6, 2025, 2:54 pm
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[member=24]Hippocrates[/member] Just checking - The deadline to
pay the discounted rate is tomorrow, so I'd really appreciate it
if you could take a quick look and let me know whether you think
I have valid grounds for appeal.
Thanks in advance for your time and help!
#Post#: 79827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: July 6, 2025, 3:47 pm
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Forget the 14 day deadline as they will reoffer. Just recovering
from jet lag etc. Prod me tomorrow please.
#Post#: 79830--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 6, 2025, 3:51 pm
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The video is the primary evidence. IMO, this shows:
The School Street restriction sign is placed at the entrance to
the street but is not visible until after the turn has been
initiated from Horns Road into the School Street.
No way. The video shows the signs to be clear. The car even
slowed.
There is a sign on Horns Road, but it's unclear which street it
applies to, especially when turning right out of the Aldi car
park.
It's perfectly clear because it's sited immediately prior to the
turn.
It's not a good idea to try this approach because you risk
undermining any credibility that might exist as regards bona
fide defences.
IMO, focus on the confusion created by the 'School streets'
lower plate, the problem a driver has in processing whether the
day in question was in 'Term Time' or not and the fact that the
earlier advance sign made no reference to 'Term Time'.
#Post#: 79844--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: rocky
Date: July 6, 2025, 6:38 pm
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[member=428]H C Andersen[/member] Thank you for your response! I
see your point and going with "Term Time Only" signage being a
better line of argument.
From what I’ve seen in previous discussions on this forum, there
have been multiple cases related to the same street, many of
which were successful on the basis of the term time-only
restriction, as [member=12]Incandescent[/member] noted.
However, I'm anxious, particularly due to the following two
posts:
1.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/redbridge-pcn-perrymans-farm-rd-53j-failing-with-a-restriction-on-vehi-5177/msg62264/#msg62264
See quote from [member=12]Incandescent[/member]:
"21. Even though that was not the case in the instant scenario,
I am of the view that it is the motorist’s responsibility and
not unreasonable to inform themselves of local school term
times. In absence of knowledge, the motorist should look at the
clearly proscribed signage as an indicator and take heed."
2.
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/redbridge-53j-perrymans-farm-road-pedestrian-zone-restriction/msg64869/#msg64869
From Hippocrates:
"No. Depends on how it is argued and which adjudicator hears
it."
Makes me wonder whether that's a still a sufficient reason to
appeal. Apologies if I misunderstood those quotes.
#Post#: 79946--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge, School Street, Perrymans Farm Road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 7, 2025, 11:24 am
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21. Even though that was not the case in the instant scenario, I
am of the view that it is the motorist’s responsibility and not
unreasonable to inform themselves of local school term times. In
absence of knowledge, the motorist should look at the clearly
proscribed signage as an indicator and take heed."
Is, frankly, nonsense IMO. It's the council which bears the
regulatory burden in the first instance.
The council's burden is what's known as the LATOR test:
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
..to place 'traffic signs'..'
The LATOR regs were made under the enabling provisions of the
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 which also provides:
General provisions as to traffic signs.
(1)In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device
(whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads
or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information,
requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
(a)specified by regulations made by the [F1relevant authority] ,
or
(b)authorised by the [F1relevant authority] ,
and any line or mark on a road for so conveying such warnings,
information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions.
The council's burden would be discharged by placing prescribed
or authorised signs where these were visible enough to motorists
to enable them to comprehend and act in conformity.
'Term time' or whatever other variant is NOT a permitted
expression in any sign prescribed by regulations therefore given
that the whole effect of the sign is predicated upon a motorist
understanding this expression what's on site cannot IMO meet the
council's burden and consequently the contravention did not
occur.
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