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#Post#: 79230--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 2, 2025, 8:30 am
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I hadn't previously seen the dashcam photo, but IMO it is
totally persuasive.
The dashcam is timed at 14.21.23. This shows the HGV which was
immediately ahead of you at the YBJ now a considerable distance
away.
You became stationary at 14.21.09 having followed this same HGV
across the YBJ. Your cab was aligned with the crossing. You
started moving at 14.21.23.
The authority have no objective evidence as to why your vehicle
stopped, but must adduce evidence or argument which on the
balance of probabilities proves that you stopped due to the
presence of stationary vehicles. The only possible vehicle being
the HGV ahead of you.
Your argument is that you stopped because of pedestrian
controlled traffic lights.
You could not have stopped because the HGV ahead itself stopped
at the lights because there was insufficient room between your
vehicle and the crossing. Therefore the authority must be
asserting that, notwithstanding the crossing, that vehicle
stopped for whatever reason beyond the lights and that it was
pure coincidence that this caused your vehicle to stop such that
your cab was aligned with the stop line at the crossing which at
that time was in your favour. Your dashcam photo shows that at
the time you set off the HGV was a considerable distance ahead.
According to the authority's reasoning, this must have been
because you did not stop because of the crossing but that while
you were stationary the lights changed against you and this
explains why the HGV was so far ahead i.e. it was free to move
but you were not. You would submit that the likelihood that each
of these factors was in place and that the authority's
contention that you stopped because of the presence of
stationary vehicles is correct is so remote that on the balance
of probabilities they have not proved that a contravention
occurred and that your appeal should be allowed.
I've been as comprehensive as possible with a view to getting
TfL to no contest.
Of course you could submit the shorter version i.e. there's no
evidence as to what caused your vehicle to stop and therefore
the authority have not proved their case.
#Post#: 84237--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: August 5, 2025, 9:45 am
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I received the Transport for London evidence in the post today.
They said "TfL acknowledges the Appellant's comments that the
vehicle stopped due to a red light on the pedestrian controlled
traffic lights, however, TfL submits that it is the driver's
responsibility to ensure a correct judgement is made when
attempting to cross over the traffic lights. Directions given by
traffic lights are advisory; the green light indicates that
motorists may proceed with caution, if it is safe and lawful to
do so, not that they must; an amber light always give adequate
warning that traffic lights are about to turn to red. Regardless
of the colour of the traffic lights, drivers should not enter a
yellow box junction unless their exit is clear and it is
possible to cross the junction without stopping"
Sooo if traffic lights are advisory, should the HGV have just
gone through the red light and mowed down any pedestrians
crossing?
#Post#: 84282--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: MrChips
Date: August 5, 2025, 11:51 am
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Complete nonsense and they should know better. Box junctions
convey a prohibition of stopping due to stationary vehicles
only. Traffic lights are completely out of scope no matter what
colour.
#Post#: 84314--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: August 5, 2025, 3:32 pm
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In part of it they also state that my dashcam still showing our
vehicle stopped at the pedestrian crossing lights with plenty of
room ahead to move into and clear the box junction, is
irrelevant. I can't remember why they said that was exactly but
I suspect it was something to do with them believing the traffic
lights are irrelevant too. We'll see if the adjudicator shares
that opinion 🤷‍♂️
#Post#: 84319--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: MrChips
Date: August 5, 2025, 3:59 pm
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When's the appeal being heard? Will be following the
adjudicator's comments with great interest.
#Post#: 84327--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: August 5, 2025, 4:30 pm
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Not a hearing. It'll be decided on paper. I couldn't appeal
online as TfL wouldn't give me a web verification code to do it,
so I had to do it by post and didn't know if I'd have a choice
on when the hearing would be. Not sure it would have helped
anyway as I wasn't driving, it's not like I could offer any
further clarity on what happened. But I will update when I get a
decision.
#Post#: 98574--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: November 17, 2025, 7:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The appeal was allowed and TfL were directed to cancel the
Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons: "The allegation in this case is
entering and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited. The
Appellants dispute this on the
basis the stop was caused by
traffic lights rather than
stationary vehicles. They have
provided a still photograph
taken from dashcam footage
as supporting evidence.
I have considered the
Appellant's photograph
together with Google
Streetview and the
enforcement camera evidence,
Having done so I am satisfied
this was a poor piece of driving
which committed the mischief
which the Regulation aims to
prevent; the Appellants' driver
entered and stopped in the box
junction. However, it seems
more likely that this was
caused by a red traffic light
than by stationary vehicles. The
contravention only occurs if the
vehicle has to stop due to the
presence of stationary
vehicles.
The Enforcement Authority can
avoid cases such as this by
locating their cameras in
positions which show the
traffic beyond the box junction
In any event, on this occasion
am not satisfied they have
established their case and
accordingly I allow the appeal."
#Post#: 98582--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: MrChips
Date: November 18, 2025, 2:20 am
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Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?
What mischief? What poor driving?
Anyway well done for seeing this through.
#Post#: 98588--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: November 18, 2025, 2:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?
> What mischief? What poor driving?
> Anyway well done for seeing this through.
>
--- End Quote ---
+1
Well done :) . Cannot see the point of Mr.Burke's snidey
comments.
Case number 2250341944
#Post#: 98590--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing
not due to other vehicles.
DIR By: TheParkingmeister
Date: November 18, 2025, 3:11 am
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--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> Poor piece of driving which committed the mischief?
>
> What mischief? What poor driving?
>
> Anyway well done for seeing this through.
>
--- End Quote ---
Presumably they refer to entering the box junction when there
was not enough room on the other side to clear it, against the
advice of the highway code. The traffic was flowing and the
vehicle would have cleared the box junction if not for the
pedestrian controlled traffic lights changing. Whether or not
following the highway code would have prevented the vehicle
stopping in the box... who knows? As the driver can't know
exactly when a pedestrian controlled traffic light will change
:-\
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